Beyond Bandwidth Podcast

Beyond Bandwidth Podcast – Season 3, Episode 1

Extended Distance Over Copper: Standards, Testing, and Network Cabling Solutions

Introduction to Extended Distance Over Copper
0:03 — Roy Chamberlain:
Hello everyone, and welcome to Beyond Bandwidth, Leviton's podcast series where we dive into network technology's hottest topics.

0:12 — Roy Chamberlain:
I'm your host from Leviton Network Solutions, Roy Chamberlain.

0:16 — Roy Chamberlain:
This season, we delve into extended distance over copper.

0:20 — Roy Chamberlain:
Today in our first episode, Todd Harpel and I will review what extended distance over copper is and how it is being defined in our industry today.

0:33 — Roy Chamberlain:
Welcome, Todd.

0:34 — Todd Harpel:
Thanks for having me.

Meet Todd Harpel: Copper Cabling and TIA Standards Expert
0:35 — Roy Chamberlain:
So we're in Season 3 for Beyond Bandwidth and we're talking about extended distance over copper and and other solutions that will get us to those distances over 100 meters.

0:46 — Roy Chamberlain:
Very excited to have you as our guest host for this season. Can you tell us a little bit about your background, you know, what you do for Leviton and any other affiliations you have in the industry?

0:58 — Todd Harpel:
Sure, yeah. So I've been working here in New Holland for Berk-Tek for 25 years actually. And we were acquired by Leviton back in 2020. So part of the Leviton family now for the last five years.

1:12 — Todd Harpel:
And I am currently in charge of copper cabling solutions, cable and connectivity in North America and the connectivity for the world really. Product managers work for me and the product managers for our copper cable work in New Holland here for me as well.

1:30 — Todd Harpel:
I'm also a member of the TIATR-42 committees that set the standards for our industry, and I attend the the copper portions of those committees that are working on different copper solutions.

1:46 — Todd Harpel:
And I am also the Communications Chair for the Connectivity and Cable Association, CCCA in our industry as well.

1:58 — Roy Chamberlain:
Wow, great. You definitely help us to understand what those standards are coming up. So those are some important affiliations when you talk about our industry. So it's it's good stuff.

What Is Extended Distance Over Copper?
2:10 — Roy Chamberlain:
So extended distance over copper, can you tell us a little bit about that and what exactly does that mean?

2:17 — Todd Harpel:
Sure. When we talk about extended distance, we're talking about supporting devices and applications that are longer than what our industry standards, the TIA standards, currently specify, which is 100 meters.

2:31 — Todd Harpel:
So that 100 meter distance specification came about back in the early days of the 568 standard and it was centered around some of the capabilities of the technology that was in place at the time with different computer communication systems and that type of thing.

2:47 — Todd Harpel:
And the 100-meter distance was settled upon that you could now have both the people that were making the cables, the connectors, the patch cords, and the systems like that give a very specific electrical performance to IEEE, who are the group that developed the standards for the actual transmission equipment.

3:10 — Todd Harpel:
So IEEE develops all the different Ethernet specifications for all the different Ethernet speeds, not only copper but also fiber.

3:18 — Todd Harpel:
So you needed the ability to give them a predictable electrical transmission media performance so that they could build all of the transmission equipment around that and know what things, like noise, were going to look like. Things like transmission delays and those kinds of things were going to look like so that they could properly design the equipment.

The History of the 100-Meter Ethernet Cabling Standard
3:40 — Roy Chamberlain:
All right, what is the history here? How did we get to this current extended distance over copper thing that's seems like it's kind of gone viral over thin air.

3:49 — Roy Chamberlain:
I mean, I've always heard of different applications in different distances that are touted from manufacturers for kind of in between.

3:58 — Roy Chamberlain:
Let's say like category 5E or 6 is for for one gig for 90 meters or 100 meters channel, and manufacturers will give other types of options where you can use them for different applications that might not be that specific, right?

4:12 — Todd Harpel:
Sure.

4:13 — Roy Chamberlain:
So what about the history of this? How did this all of a sudden just break out within these last couple of years?

4:19 — Todd Harpel:
Well, it's kind of funny because I've been in the industry long enough to remember when there were different communication protocols for different computer manufacturers.

4:30 — Todd Harpel:
So IBM was different from Digital Equipment Corporation, was different from Wangnet.

4:35 — Todd Harpel:
And actually every one of them had their own cabling system and actually had their own distance capabilities which were not 100 meters.

4:42 — Todd Harpel:
Some of them were much longer. And then when we finally came out with the first 568 standard, then we finally had a standardization on this 100 meters.

4:51 — Todd Harpel:
And then a few years ago, and it's actually been a number of years, we would have as part of the industry, we have warranties on our cabling system.

5:00 — Todd Harpel:
And we would get test data from some of the installers who would send in test data that had links that were slightly longer than 100 meters.

5:09 — Todd Harpel:
And that usually happened by accident where the pathway they used to reach the station at the other end was a little bit longer, or they had to route around an obstruction and the cable got to be a little bit longer than that they had planned. And a lot of times they would say, hey, can't you just warrant it? It still passed.

5:27 — Todd Harpel:
Most of the other parameters except for length would still pass. Crosstalk, would still pass attenuation, those kinds of things.

5:34 — Todd Harpel:
And often they would even try to set up the equipment at the other end and it would work.

5:39 — Todd Harpel:
And we had companies come to us and say, hey, we're using one of your high bandwidth category sixes at the time, or Landmark 2000.

5:47 — Todd Harpel:
And they would say, hey, at work we were able to support this IP phone, you know, out there at 106 meters. I'm like, yeah, that can work.

5:56 — Todd Harpel:
But then a couple years ago, we started to hear from different manufacturers who were starting to tout some pretty extraordinary distances beyond 100 meters.

6:08 — Todd Harpel:
It wasn't just, you know, 5 or 6, it was double the distance was their claim.

6:13 — Todd Harpel:
And often the evidence that they were giving was a single test with two specific devices that actually were able to make a connection at a really long distance as proof that everything would pass.

6:26 — Todd Harpel:
And in the reality is that's not necessarily the case.

6:30 — Todd Harpel:
But there are a lot of people out there that say, you know what, it's a lot cheaper to run a copper cable and hope that it works than to put in another communication closet or even a, you know, a remote switch somewhere in a cabinet where you have now you have to get power out there.

6:49 — Todd Harpel:
You've got to do a lot of things to to be able to support that, which is very expensive. Just running a piece of cable to that remote device is a cheaper option.

6:58 — Todd Harpel:
And they would rather take that and even take the chance of it working then just kind of do it. What we would consider that have at the time the right way.

Why Cable Testers Flag Links Beyond 100 Meters
7:07 — Roy Chamberlain:
So you brought up a really good point. And I remember this and it's a question that comes up.

7:12 — Roy Chamberlain:
It's like, OK, well you know, I have my tester on the cable, it's beyond the 90 meters or 100 meters whether I'm doing channel or, or basic permanent link.

7:21 — Roy Chamberlain:
And like you said, I I have headroom and and I meet or exceed all the parameters except for length. Can you explain why the tester has everything passing but the length is what limits it?

7:35 — Roy Chamberlain:
Can you just explain why that limitation causes us to get that failure even though all the electricals on the tester that it's going through don't seem to pass?

7:45 — Todd Harpel:
Well, the primary reason that it fails is the tester is programmed with a pass/fail based on the actual length, right?

7:53 — Todd Harpel:
So that tester's settings are going to say, "Up, it's too long, therefore it's not going to pass."  Right.

7:59 — Todd Harpel:
However, as an industry built cables and connectors and patch cords that are better than what industry standards actually require, right.

8:08 — Todd Harpel:
So we put put in extra copper, we put in extra noise suppression in the crosstalk and alien crosstalk and those kinds of things into our cables.

8:18 — Todd Harpel:
And and that's just kind of part of our industry differentiation process. And part of that was to help mitigate maybe external environmental factors or, right, at times even installation practice that may have been substandard, it could actually compensate for that and make things easier to pass.

8:39 — Todd Harpel:
That's why you're seeing some of the rest of the parameters besides length still pass for the TIA standards.

8:47 — Roy Chamberlain:
OK, that's a good explanation.

TIA TSB-5073 and Extended Distance Cabling Guidance
8:49 — Roy Chamberlain:
So you mentioned your role in the TSB-5073 as part of the TIA committee that you're involved with.

8:57 — Roy Chamberlain:
Can you kind of expand on what your role is and, you know, some of the conversations and debates that are going around in those meetings?

9:05 — Todd Harpel:
Yeah, the TIA TR-42.7 committee has been looking at this whole issue of extended distance, recognizing that the industry's doing something outside the scope of the standards and realizing that, you know, we are the representatives of the industry and need to inform our readers of our standards and the user community on what's going on.

9:30 — Todd Harpel:
So there was a task group formed to look at this, and I was part of that task group at the time.

9:37 — Todd Harpel:
This was in 2024. We started looking at what should we be doing and started saying, well, you know, maybe we should write a technical services bulletin or or a TSB.

9:47 — Todd Harpel:
The task group started looking at what should be included in this TSB. At the beginning we didn't even have a number. We just started accumulating contributions from various companies within our industry.

10:00 — Todd Harpel:
In the middle of 2025, we finally got TIA to assign a number and that's TSB-5073.

10:07 — Todd Harpel:
And now the editor of that document, it's still in a task group format.

10:12 — Todd Harpel:
What that means according to the rules of TIA, is as long as it's a task group, what we can do is almost anything. We can add, delete, we can rearrange. We can do anything we want to the document without taking any votes or anything like that to get it finally to a position where we want to literally start a formal process with the document where you submit it for what's called a ballot.

10:37 — Todd Harpel:
And then at that point, it's locked into pretty much the place or the way that you want it to be arranged. And then it can only be changed with industry consensus.

10:46 — Todd Harpel:
So right now, that's where we are. It's still in task group form.

10:50 — Todd Harpel:
I am completing the final version that's going to be submitted to the committee in February's meeting of next year. And at that point, we'll send it out for the first ballot, they call it.

11:03 — Todd Harpel:
And that first ballot will give everyone that is in the TR-427 committee the opportunity to start submitting comments and doing technical changes or editorial changes or those kinds of things. And all of those have to be considered and you have to reach consensus with the committee members before any changes can be made.

TSB vs. TIA Standard: What Network Designers Need to Know
11:25 — Todd Harpel:
OK.  As far as the discussions and conversations, there's a couple things I'd really like to mention.

11:30 — Todd Harpel:
Number one is that a TSB is only technical information.

11:37 — Todd Harpel:
It is not a standard and a lot of people get back confused, right?

11:41 — Todd Harpel:
A TSB will never have the word shall or must in it. Everything in the TSB is a recommendation. So you can't really design a standard with only recommendations, right?

11:54 — Todd Harpel:
All of your regular standards say it shall be this. You know, the the length shall be 100 meters or the near and cross talk shall not exceed X at this frequency, those kinds of things.

12:04 — Todd Harpel:
With TSB, we have to be really careful.

12:06 — Todd Harpel:
It is basically a explanation and technical information of what you need to know if you're going to do something that is actually outside the scope of a standard, right?

12:19 — Todd Harpel:
Like an exception to the rule kind of thing.

12:22 — Todd Harpel:
I like to remind people of the early days of 10 Gigabit Ethernet. There was a TSB called TSB-155 that said, hey, if you want to try to run 10 Gigabit Ethernet over existing Category 6, here are the things that you need to be aware of.

12:39 — Todd Harpel:
Now we all know that 10 Gigabit Ethernet is actually designed to operate over Category 6A, but it is possible to run a few links that are shortish distance, right?

12:50 — Todd Harpel:
55 meters, those kinds of things.

12:52 — Todd Harpel:
So it's recommendations for what to look at, but it is not a design standard.

12:58 — Todd Harpel:
So you can't design a cabling system around a TSB.

Copper vs. Fiber for Extended-Distance Network Connections

13:03 — Roy Chamberlain:
So I'm, I'm curious and I've seen the history myself and I feel like we've done everything to to siphon every drop of potential out of twisted pair cabling, right?

13:14 — Roy Chamberlain:
Is there a movement towards fiber with power conductors versus just trying to keep extending twisted pair?

13:21 — Roy Chamberlain:
I mean, what's your understanding or experience on why we keep pushing twisted pair when it seems like fiber and a higher gauge copper might be an easier way to get those performance and mitigate voltage drop, things like that?

13:39 — Todd Harpel:
Well, the short answer is it's cheaper, right? OK, depending on how far you want to go, using a copper twisted pair cable tends to be less expensive than trying to use another alternative like optical fiber with transceiver that you can go much further than any copper cable could go, right?

14:00 — Todd Harpel:
You can go kilometers with optical fiber rather than just the few 100 meters that you can with copper.

14:08 — Todd Harpel:
But the cost of doing that, and you mentioned a hybrid cable that has copper conductors in with the fiber to carry the DC voltage often associated with the transceivers.

14:19 — Todd Harpel:
Those are great options when you have much longer distances to go where you would not be able to reach that with a twisted pair of copper cable, but within a certain range, somewhere around 155 to 200 meters depending on your application and the amount of PoE power you want to send, copper cable tends to be a much less expensive option for that deployment than using optical fiber.

Leviton Extended Distance Copper Cabling Solutions
14:46 — Roy Chamberlain:
OK, how is Leviton addressing extended distance needs today? Like what is in store in the future from Leviton on extended distance over copper?

14:57 — Todd Harpel:
Yeah, today we have a solution that is based on our SST Category 6A cable and it's actually a global solution.

15:06 — Todd Harpel:
Our our factory in Europe also made the same cable and has the same capabilities, and we're able to support 140 to 155 meters depending on what PoE power level you want to send.

15:17 — Todd Harpel:
Then I would say there are several other companies in the industry that have similar type of capabilities in terms of their specific cabling and being able to go in that range.

15:29 — Todd Harpel:
So we we support that with our SST and our ATLAS-X1 connectivity today with a guarantee with a warranty for that.

15:37 — Todd Harpel:
We're pretty excited about that and there's still some things out there in terms of copper cable technology and cable designs that we're exploring that hopefully will get us even longer capability.

15:52 — Todd Harpel:
We're we're pretty excited about some of the things that we've observed in some of the trials that we've done.

15:58 — Todd Harpel:
And it's interesting to me that the technology is being stretched, but it's an exciting time to be in our industry right now because we're all looking for ways of giving our customers really what they want.

16:09 — Todd Harpel:
We have some very large end users that have been very interested in some of these capabilities and are starting to deploy them in some pretty significant opportunities around the world because they recognize the cost savings that they're going to have by not having to add transceivers with fiber or extra closets or extra cabinets, those kinds of things.

16:30 — Roy Chamberlain:
Yeah, yeah, no, that's good. And it is, it is exciting.

16:34 — Roy Chamberlain:
It seems like a lot of new things have that are used that need to be used, right.

16:39 — Roy Chamberlain:
A lot of the demand in the industry has created some excitement in our portion to be able to address, you know, what the demands are of the clients and and the technologies.

What to Expect in Season 3 of Beyond Bandwidth
16:51 — Roy Chamberlain:
So now we're kind of doing this introduction here for our first episode.

16:56 — Roy Chamberlain:
What can the audience expect to learn from this season of Beyond Bandwidth?

17:03 — Todd Harpel:
Yeah, we've set up some pretty great guests for the podcasts. We wanted to look at this topic from a number of different perspectives. So we have a consultant who does designs for their clients. We have a tester manufacturer who's going to give us some details on what they're seeing and things like testing of these extended distance channels. We're looking at other types of guests that have actual experience with either the use of or the deployment of these types of systems. And you know, we wanted to make sure that all of the perspectives were given fair air time.

17:40 — Todd Harpel:
You will hear, in some cases, people kind of saying, you know what, at the end of the day, we still recommend that you go within the scope of the standards, which is 100 meters. But from my perspective, that's still sound advice, but they're still going to be opportunities to go beyond that and maybe deploy a limited number of channels that are outside the scope of that 100 meters.

Beyond Bandwidth Podcast – Season 3, Episode 2

Extended Distance Over Copper: Testing, Performance, and Link Reliability

Introduction to Extended Distance Copper Cabling Testing
0:03 — Roy Chamberlain:
Hello everyone, and welcome back to Season 3 of Beyond Bandwidth, Leviton's podcast series where we dive into network technology's hottest topics.

0:13 — Roy Chamberlain:
I am your host from Leviton Network Solutions, Roy Chamberlain.

0:18 — Roy Chamberlain:
Our guest host, Todd Harpel, sits down with Mike Dodds, who works at our copper cable manufacturing plant in New Holland, PA as an Engineer II, for testing on Berk-Tek's Research and Development Team.

0:32 — Roy Chamberlain:
Mike plays a significant role in the thousands of tests that have been performed on extended distance over copper channels.

0:39 — Roy Chamberlain:
Listening to hear the science and reality of the research and results accomplished by both of these leaders in the copper cable industry.

Meet Mike Dodds: Extended Distance Copper Cabling Testing Expert
0:50 — Todd Harpel:
Welcome everyone. We are here today to talk with Mike Dodds.

0:56 — Todd Harpel:
Mike, why don't you just give yourself a brief introduction on your time here with Leviton?

1:04 — Mike Dodds:
Yeah, thanks for having me.

1:05 — Mike Dodds:
So I've been with Leviton for about 8 years now working primarily in the systems verification lab.

1:10 — Mike Dodds:
So, doing a lot of work with evaluating the overall system performance of both copper and fiber-based mitigations.

1:18 — Mike Dodds:
And my specialty is more or less in line with active data transmission.

1:23 — Mike Dodds:
So evaluating how well our systems can transmit different IEEE transition protocols.

1:29 — Mike Dodds:
So think like 1000 base T to an FG base T, just different communications systems like that, just making sure that they're robust enough to handle real world scenarios.

1:38 — Mike Dodds:
So that's kind of the main focus of of what I do here.

1:42 — Todd Harpel:
Great, thank you. Just so everyone knows, Mike has done a lot of work on testing of extended distance links. In fact, he's published several papers on the topic, several within the IWCS organization and done some white papers for us. So Mike's got a lot of experience with looking at this very interesting and popular topic right now, extending the distances for twisted pair copper cabling transmission beyond 100 meters.

2:16 — Todd Harpel:
And that's really what our podcast is focused on right now. So I wanted to meet with Mike because he has some really great knowledge and interesting observations.

How Conductor Size Affects Extended Distance Ethernet and PoE
2:28 — Todd Harpel:
The first thing I wanted to ask you was you've tested a lot of different cables with different conductor sizes.

2:35 — Todd Harpel:
And are there any just kind of general observations that you have about the effect that conductor size has on the total distance that can be supported?

2:46 — Mike Dodds:
I think first we can split it into two aspects. One aspect would be Power over Ethernet and the other aspect would be the actual E part of PoE, so the Ethernet component.

2:57 — Mike Dodds:
In terms of Power over Ethernet, larger conductors are going to have lower resistance per unit length. So if you're assuming that all your pair sets are balanced and there isn't anything out of whack there, you could theoretically increase your PoE reach. But like I said before, you can't have Power over Ethernet without Ethernet.

3:14 — Mike Dodds:
And when it comes to Ethernet, conductor size is only really part of the equation. So in terms of getting a extended length performance out of a Ethernet system, you need an adequate signal to noise ratio and the conductor size is really going to really only going to address the S in that SNR equation.

3:33 — Todd Harpel:
Great. And so often what we're seeing in the marketplace today are extended distance cables that are focused on their increasingly large conductor size and is there a really direct relationship between the conductor size?

3:48 — Todd Harpel:
And I think you just mentioned Power over Ethernet, but you know, in terms of the maximum distance maybe that a cable can support for just Ethernet without power?

3:58 — Mike Dodds:
Yeah. So if we're just focusing on data transmission, the short answer to your question is, is no, There is no direct relationship between a cable conductor size and the maximum distance that it can support.

4:10 — Mike Dodds:
So if theoretically you were to line up like a 24-gauge, 23-gauge, 22-gauge, and 21-gauge system in front of me and you gave me no other information and asked me which of these is going to support gigabits of the longest distance, I wouldn't be able to answer your question because I mean, intuitively you might say that larger conductors have lower attenuation, which is a big factor for extended reach so they can reach further.

4:34 — Mike Dodds:
But in order to make any extended length application function like any Ethernet application at all, you need to make sure you have that adequate signal to noise ratio.

4:43 — Mike Dodds:
So larger conductors are going to decrease your loss, loss your signal.

4:47 — Mike Dodds:
But if they can't mitigate noise properly, then it doesn't really matter.

4:51 — Mike Dodds:
So if you have a say like a a very large conductor that has poor noise mitigation, it honestly might not reach as far as a smaller gauge size like a 24 that has adequate noise mitigation. So it's really a balancing act.

5:04 — Mike Dodds:
It's not as simple as just saying larger conductors going to reach further. It all harkens back to that single to noise ratio equation that I mentioned before. Right.

5:14 — Todd Harpel:
And I think what we're seeing in the marketplace today are cables that have either no category rating associated with them, or perhaps maybe just a category 6, if that, associated with them.

5:30 — Todd Harpel:
And of course to be rated category 6, you have to meet certain TIA standards at 100 meters.

5:37 — Todd Harpel:
So, you know, the noise characteristics I guess of a cable beyond 100 meters would not necessarily be 100% from what I'm hearing you say mitigated by just increasing the conductor size. Is that a correct?

5:52 — Mike Dodds:
Right. Yep, that's that's correct.

How Active Ethernet Equipment Affects Extended Distance Performance

5:55 — Todd Harpel:
So switching over to the the transmission equipment that's used, you know, the switches or the end device like a wireless access point or let's say a camera, do these devices themselves have an effect on the total distance that any given cable can be supported at?

6:14 — Mike Dodds:
Yes, active equipment actually plays a huge role in the total distance that a channel can support, which actually kind of presents a bit of a, a unique challenge to us as a cable and system designers.

6:25 — Mike Dodds:
So with extended distance applications, I mean we're basically trying to hit a moving target in terms of making our systems work with other companies, equipment outside of standard applications.

6:37 — Mike Dodds:
So basically the way that the IEEE 82.3 standard is written, it specifies that if you have a link with specific characteristics and you're aiming for a specific transmission quality measured as a bit error rate, then you can achieve it.

6:51 — Mike Dodds:
But the standard doesn't necessarily specify how you could manufacturers need to achieve that bit error rate. So they could implement different forms of digital signal processing or different power levels to their their transmitters and different sensitivity to their receivers.

7:08 — Mike Dodds:
So you could have an instance where one manufacturer designs their chipset to just barely meet that objective bit error rate using maybe cheaper components or maybe they're just cost reducing their system.

7:19 — Mike Dodds:
But you could have another situation where another manufacturer is very robustly designing their chipset with plenty of margin from echo cancellation and different digital signal processing techniques, which in that scenario you're going to be able to operate at a longer length beyond the standard reach just because of the extra margin built into the chipset.

7:39 — Mike Dodds:
And it sort of just makes matters even more complicated beyond just the variation of individual chipsets.

7:44 — Mike Dodds:
We just take into account the fact that the performance of a link is dependent upon how both ends of the link works.

7:51 — Mike Dodds:
So pairs of devices that are being connected and not just one device.

7:55 — Mike Dodds:
So you could have one pair of equipment where there's a particularly strong chipset on one side and a weaker chipset on the other and they don't cooperate very well and you have a weak link.

8:05 — Mike Dodds:
But you could have a scenario where you have maybe like an average chipset on both sides and that might perform better than the the one where you have a strong on one side and a weak on the other.

8:15 — Mike Dodds:
So there's a lot of interactions happening from the active equipment standpoint that we need to take into account and really do pretty significantly affect the the performance of extended length applications.

8:27 — Todd Harpel:
Yeah, it reminds me that for many, many years in the TIA world and structured cabling world, manufacturers have tried to make their products better than the minimum requirements of a standard, right?

8:42 — Todd Harpel:
So for example, when category 6 first came out, you know, a lot of the manufacturers, Leviton included, were going out and we were designing products, cables, connectors that actually performed better than the minimum requirement.

8:58 — Todd Harpel:
And I would think that some of the Ethernet device manufacturers, switch manufacturers and those kinds of things are probably doing something similar.

Ethernet Port Performance Variability in Extended Distance Testing
9:07 — Todd Harpel:
Have you seen a large variability in Ethernet port performance over the course of your testing?

9:14 — Mike Dodds:
Yes, definitely. So we sample a pretty large sampling of different switches and PoE devices from a multitude of different manufacturers, ranging from 10 Base T for a copper lease all the way up to like 10G Base T when we do see a lot of variation in terms of performance just looking at those particular kinds of switches.

9:36 — Mike Dodds:
So like I mentioned, we we're constantly testing out different combinations of active equipment to sort of hone in on what's a reasonable worst case.

9:43 — Mike Dodds:
And in that process, we might identify a pair of devices where we get nearly error-free transmission.

9:50 — Mike Dodds:
And with the same exact link segment, we try it with a different combination of active equipment.

9:55 — Mike Dodds:
And now all of a sudden we're barely able to achieve length or it's not a very robust connection at all.

10:00 — Mike Dodds:
And just sort of as an example, I know you're you're mentioning the the papers that that we wrote about extended length performance.

10:06 — Mike Dodds:
There's one one of the papers back in 2021 where we evaluated the data transition quality across different equipment combinations, different switch combinations and using different link segments with different characteristics.

10:20 — Mike Dodds:
In that paper, in one instance we found using the exact same link segments for one equipment combination, we dropped maybe about 10 frames per every 10 billion Ethernet frames that we transmitted.

10:31 — Mike Dodds:
So not a whole lot, probably won't even notice that as an end user.

10:34 — Mike Dodds:
But with the exact same link segment, just using same link segment trying out a different combination of active equipment, we dropped nearly half of the 10 billion frames are being transmitted.

10:47 — Mike Dodds:
So simply by changing active equipment, we saw a massive reduction in quality of the transmission of the data that we're transmitting.

10:55 — Mike Dodds:
So it's there's quite a bit of variability out there in terms of Ethernet poor quality for extended length applications.

11:03 — Todd Harpel:
Yeah, that's, that's not too much of a surprise I don't think for a lot of people out there than those folks that have actually tried.

11:11 — Todd Harpel:
And when we've had tried to use extended distance links. I remember several times being at a conference at a trade show in our booth, having some of our contractors come up to us and say, hey, we've got one or two locations and this one installation that are beyond 100 meters.

11:30 — Todd Harpel:
And usually it was not that far, you know, it was maybe 106, 110 whatever meters.

11:35 — Todd Harpel:
And they said, you know, what we did was we just tried using one of your cables and hooked it up and it worked and great.

11:41 — Todd Harpel:
That's, that's wonderful.

11:43 — Todd Harpel:
I always try to caution them to say you're well, you know, it may not work tomorrow as if you ever change one of those devices out, that new combination may not work.

11:54 — Mike Dodds:
So yeah, or even this the same device combination, just they naturally age over time and the quality of their their digital signal processing or their transmit powers might be reduced.

12:03 — Mike Dodds:
So even variability within the same device can have pretty significant impact. Right.

How Ethernet Speed Affects Maximum Copper Cabling Distance
12:10 — Todd Harpel:
One of the other questions I usually get from people are I have a device that needs more bandwidth.

12:16 — Todd Harpel:
So rather than just being 10 Base T or 100 Base T, if somebody wants to use gigabit or even 2-1/2 gigabits per second, does the speed at which you're trying to transmit have an effect on maybe the total distance you can support beyond 100 meters?

12:31 — Mike Dodds:
Yes, it'll it'll have a big impact.

12:33 — Mike Dodds:
So basically as you're going to these higher data rates, you need to utilize a a wider bandwidth.

12:39 — Mike Dodds:
So you're utilizing higher frequencies.

12:41 — Mike Dodds:
And the basic relationship with frequency and attenuation is as the frequency you use goes up, the overall attenuation is also going to go up.

12:51 — Mike Dodds:
So higher frequencies signals get attenuated per unit length more than lower frequency signals.

12:57 — Mike Dodds:
And with these higher speeds, you have to worry about what's happening out.

13:00 — Mike Dodds:
Say for example with a 10GBase-T, you need to worry about how your link segment is going to be able to support the frequencies out to like 400 megahertz whereas a 10-Base-T you really need to worry about that.

13:12 — Mike Dodds:
All you need to worry about is that roughly like 10 megahertz range, just making sure your link statement can support that which gets attenuated less per year length just because of the relationship between frequency and attenuation.

13:23 — Mike Dodds:
So all that is to say that these higher speed applications are going to have a lot harder of a time supporting extended reach applications just because wider frequency range and the frequencies within that range are going to be on the higher end of the spectrum.

13:39 — Mike Dodds:
And those are more susceptible to attenuation due to the link segment.

13:46 — Todd Harpel:
Yeah, that's something that I think a lot of folks need to understand is the higher the frequency, which is the higher speed Ethernet variance they are more susceptible.

13:56 — Todd Harpel:
And that's the reason for example, that we created, you know, category 5E was created when CAT5 was still in existence so we could better support fast Ethernet.

14:05 — Todd Harpel:
And category 6A was created to be able to support 10 Gigabit Ethernet because of the higher frequencies and some of the other noise characteristics that we needed to deal with.

How Temperature Affects Extended Distance Copper Cabling
14:17 — Todd Harpel:
So another issue that I think some folks probably don't think about too often, but probably should it is the effect of temperature of the cable on the distance that it can be supported.

14:30 — Todd Harpel:
So often we're seeing many of the applications that are being supported for extended distance tend to be outside of a standard, you know, office building. You're running in a parking lot or a parking garage or you're running out to a ball field and you're in a non-temperature controlled environment.

14:49 — Todd Harpel:
What kind of effect does temperature have the cable have on the maximum distance it can support?

14:56 — Mike Dodds:
In general, as temperature goes up, you can expect your supported distance to go down and that's basically keeping a lot of the other transmission parameters of your link effectively constant.

15:08 — Mike Dodds:
There are little changes that temperature is going to affect in terms of your internal cross talk and your return loss, but the main thing that it's going to negatively affect is your attenuation.

15:17 — Mike Dodds:
So the resistance of copper is going to increase as your temperature increases, which is going to make the overall attenuation of your link segment go up as the temperature goes up.

15:27 — Mike Dodds:
So effectively what you're getting is your signal to noise ratio is having that signal component of it reduce.

15:36 — Mike Dodds:
So it's going to make your signal to noise ratio worse as the the temperature goes up.

15:40 — Mike Dodds:
And like I mentioned before, that's ultimately what's going to decide the quality of your extended length application.

15:46 — Mike Dodds:
So if your quality is going down just as an effect of the temperature going up, then you're going to have to account for that increase in attenuation just by reducing the length of your system just to make sure that you can still hit that adequate signal to noise ratio.

16:01 — Todd Harpel:
Yeah, it's, it's one of those things where, you know, I think people, especially in areas where you have large changes in temperature in the same day perhaps.

16:12 — Todd Harpel:
So in the evening it's pretty cool your your cables running, let's say through a conduit that's suspended above a roof line or something out to a camera.

16:21 — Todd Harpel:
And then as the temperature rises during the day, it goes way up and temperature of the cable inside that conduit will increase and then it'll drop again.

Temperature Changes, Adaptive Equalization, and Link Reliability

16:30 — Todd Harpel:
So tell us a little bit about some of the things you found when temperature is varied over time on the quality of the transmissions.

16:39 — Mike Dodds:
Yeah. So temperature variation is, is been interesting in its effect on extended length applications.

16:44 — Mike Dodds:
So it does negatively affect an extended sense link if the active equipment is using what's called adaptive equalization and basically any chipset that uses 1000 Base T or faster some hundred base TX chipset.

16:57 — Mike Dodds:
So though it's not a universal use adaptive equalization.

17:01 — Mike Dodds:
And what that means is that the chipset will basically in real time, it'll automatically adjust how it filters and processes the transmitted signal based on the characteristics of your link segment.

17:13 — Mike Dodds:
So when the temperature is fluctuating, the chipsets basically having to adjust and filter so that it can maintain that adequate signal to noise ratio.

17:23 — Mike Dodds:
So you're going to have your your signal fluctuating in terms of strength, you're going to have your noise sources that are going to be an altered a little bit by the temperature fluctuations.

17:31 — Mike Dodds:
So it's really stressing the chipset to try to keep up with those changes to the signal to noise ratio.

17:37 — Mike Dodds:
And if your link segment isn't really robust enough to handle those environmental fluctuations to the point where the chipset is effectively trying to play catch up the entire time, you could see errors pop up during those temperature swings.

17:51 — Mike Dodds:
So you could have a link segment that's basically robust enough that the noise is always going to be fairly low or the signal is strong enough that small swings in the temperature aren't going to reduce the single strength to the point where it's an issue.

18:05 — Mike Dodds:
But if you have a link that's more susceptible to noise fluctuations, then this is a scenario where changes in temperature could cause some pretty significant issues to the quality of your link segment.

18:17 — Mike Dodds:
And that's all stuff that we take into account when we're doing our extended length testing.

Why Reliable Extended Distance Links Matter for Surveillance and Life Safety
18:22 — Todd Harpel:
And so when we talked about the the quality of the link segment and the quality of the transmission, when we're talking about things like surveillance cameras, that quality translates into a quality of the image, right?

18:36 — Todd Harpel:
And that can do something that can be really detrimental to the actual function of of the device that you're trying to support.

18:45 — Todd Harpel:
So I think overall what I'm getting at here is it's not as simple as, you know, maybe it's a wireless access point for Wi-Fi where it's a convenience thing, it's a guest network or something.

18:58 — Todd Harpel:
And it would be simply an inconvenience to have the link affect the quality of the signal.

19:03 — Todd Harpel:
But if it's surveillance, if it's let's say emergency phone, for example, that could be a very different scenario where you now have life safety issues affected by the quality of that signal.

19:18 — Mike Dodds:
Yep, yeah, life safety, I know, especially with the video surveillance as well.

19:23 — Mike Dodds:
I know here in in Pennsylvania, there's certain requirements for like video evidence to be permissible in court.

19:29 — Mike Dodds:
And if you have a faulty link segment that just so happened that you're trying to investigate, say like a robbery or something, and you don't have high enough quality of a, a video feed to really identify anything, that evidence could be just completely thrown out.

19:42 — Mike Dodds:
And it's, and it's useless in court because the quality isn't high enough.

19:45 — Mike Dodds:
Like you said, it's not just say kind of like a, a user and end user quality standpoint.

19:50 — Mike Dodds:
There's some pretty serious implications as well to kind of faulty real time data links. 

Why a Green Ethernet Link Light Does Not Guarantee Performance
19:57 — Todd Harpel:
One of the things that I mentioned earlier was, you know, contractors coming to us and saying, hey, we tried such and such a a cable at a distance of 120 meters, and we plugged it in and we got green lights on the switch and, and a green light on the device on the Ethernet port.

20:15 — Todd Harpel:
Does having a green light automatically mean that you're actually going to get the functionality you're looking for?

20:22 — Mike Dodds:
I guess it depends on your definition of the, the functionality that you're looking for.

20:27 — Mike Dodds:
But in my opinion it, it doesn't.

20:30 — Mike Dodds:
And actually, if we go back to the 2021 paper that we wrote, the switch combination example that I gave, in both combinations, we started off having green link lights.

20:39 — Mike Dodds:
So in the strong combination we had link lights, in a weak combination, we had link lights.

20:43 — Mike Dodds:
But it wasn't until we actually started getting deeper into the frame error rate test that all of a sudden we saw that one of the links that they, they both looked pretty much identical before the test started with the green link lights, one of them was dropping 10 frames for 10 billion frames and the other one was basically dropping in and out the entire time.

21:01 — Mike Dodds:
So just having green link lights is not an indication of having a quality link.

21:06 — Mike Dodds:
It's not really telling you any information about the robustness of that link.

21:10 — Mike Dodds:
So you could have a scenario where you have two lengths, both are up, both have green link lights, and then there's some kind of environmental noise that gets injected into it.

21:20 — Mike Dodds:
So maybe you have a like an air conditioner or a refrigerator or something like condenser kicks on and induces some kind of electrical fast transient.

21:29 — Mike Dodds:
So like noise from the environment.

21:31 — Mike Dodds:
One of those links might be fine because it might be a very robust link.

21:34 — Mike Dodds:
Whereas the other one was kind of riding on that hairy edge where it had high enough quality of a connection that it could maintain link, but any little interference to the signal to noise ratio could be enough to to knock it out.

21:47 — Mike Dodds:
So short answer, just having green link lights is not enough to say you have a fully functional application. 

Finding a Reliable Distance for Extended Reach 1000BASE-T
21:56 — Todd Harpel:
So you know, you've done thousands, I believe, of link tests with these different types of cables over longer, longer lengths.

22:05 — Todd Harpel:
And I know you've done many different cable types and different device types.

22:10 — Todd Harpel:
If you were to kind of target a reasonable length at which you've seen the largest number of devices over, let's say the largest temperature variation be able to be supported beyond 100 meters with the largest number of different cable types, what would that length be sort of just a target?

22:32 — Mike Dodds:
So we performed a pretty significant amount of extended length testing over the past few years that did include the temperature variations and sampling a bunch of different combinations of switches and other forms of active equipment.

22:46 — Mike Dodds:
That being said, there's a lot of variables that kind of play into what is the, the "sweet spot" for extended distance applications, which it depends on the transmission speed, the link segment design, but lets say

22:58 — Mike Dodds:
we if we were to hone in on 1000 Base T, in general, we can see it functioning maybe slightly beyond the point at which these links can still meet the 1000 Base T link requirements.

23:10 — Mike Dodds:
So effectively saying that there's enough margin to guarantee that we can go beyond the point where we're still meeting propagation delay requirements and insertion loss requirements, crosstalk requirements and all that for 1000Base T, that would be just for like a minimally compliant system.

23:24 — Mike Dodds:
But I mean, there are ways that you can effectively design your system to mitigate the issues that extended length applications can present, in which case you can go a bit beyond that.

23:34 — Mike Dodds:
But in reality you're seeing like maybe like the 1, 140, 150 around that range is sort of like a could be a bit of a sweet spot in terms of having like a reliable system if it's designed properly. Right.

23:48 — Todd Harpel:
And that that's assuming that you have pretty robust devices and cabling system that is over designed for TIA, but at least something that's reasonable to to consider as as far as an extended link. Right.

24:04 — Mike Dodds:
Yeah, you could have like just so you take any kind of minimally compliant CAT 6A system and you're looking at a length where you can reliably support 1000 Base T if it's just mid-compliant, no special considerations given to it at all, it'll be like 110-ish meters.

24:19 — Mike Dodds:
So it's not not a huge increase over the baseline of the 100 meter standard.

24:24 — Mike Dodds:
But like I said, there are ways that you can mitigate the issues introduced by extended length applications to go a bit further.

24:31 — Mike Dodds:
That's a lot of what we do is we try to figure out how do we compensate for that. 

Key Takeaways for Extended Distance Copper Cabling
24:37 — Todd Harpel:
I think this topic has been something that we've been discussing for at least four years now within the industry.

24:46 — Todd Harpel:
And I think there are a number of organizations out there that have identified certain use cases that they'd like to be able to support it with.

24:55 — Todd Harpel:
And so I think the the information you've provided today, Mike, hopefully will inform them on some of the things that need to be taking into consideration.

25:05 — Todd Harpel:
And you know, hopefully we will be able to meet those needs with our own products and in the future be able to discuss this further with additional customers.

25:14 — Todd Harpel:
So we appreciate your time today and thanks for being with us.

25:18 — Mike Dodds:
Yeah, of course, it's my pleasure.

Closing
25:24 — Roy Chamberlain:
Beyond Bandwidth is a podcast series produced by Leviton Network Solutions.

25:29 — Roy Chamberlain:
For more information on the topics we talked about today, as well as other enterprise or data center network infrastructure content, or to check out all available episodes of Beyond Bandwidth, visit us on the web at leviton.com/beyondbandwidth, or wherever you normally listen to podcasts.

25:49 — Roy Chamberlain:
If you enjoyed this episode, we'd appreciate you leaving an honest review in your podcast application. Along with word of mouth, leaving a review will help others find our show.

25:58 — Roy Chamberlain:
I'm Roy Chamberlain and this was Beyond Bandwidth. Until next time.

Beyond Bandwidth Podcast – Season 3, Episode 3

Extended Distance Over Copper: Design Challenges, Standards, and Real-World Network Applications

Introduction to Extended Distance Over Copper
0:03 — Roy Chamberlain:
Hello everyone, and welcome to Beyond Bandwidth, Leviton's podcast series where we dive into network technology's hottest topics.

0:12 — Roy Chamberlain:
I am your host from Leviton Network Solutions, Roy Chamberlain.

0:16 — Roy Chamberlain:
This conversation has today's host, Todd Harpel, Senior Director of Copper Systems at Leviton Network Solutions, talking with Diane Forbes, CEO and Principal Consultant at NIS Consulting out of the Pacific Northwest.

0:33 — Roy Chamberlain:
Diane and Todd are both contributors to the TIA.

0:37 — Roy Chamberlain:
This episode moves the focus to the industry trends from a standards perspective on the apparent need for extended distance over copper, reviewing the case from multiple angles of the topic.

Meet Diane Forbes: Network Infrastructure and TIA Standards Consultant
0:51 — Todd Harpel:
Well, thanks for being here everyone. With me today is Diane Forbes with NIS.

0:58 — Todd Harpel:
And I wanted to also mention that she is a colleague of mine with TIA working on the TIA Working Groups together. So she's been a long-time member of that.

1:08 — Todd Harpel:
Today we're talking about extended distance trend that we're seeing in our industry for copper cabling going beyond 100 meters.

1:19 — Todd Harpel:
And I wanted to just get Diane to introduce herself as well. So Diane, can you tell us a little bit about yourself?

1:25 — Diane Forbes:
Well, sure, I am in the Pacific Northwest, so we have beautiful landscape, but we also do a lot of work in our company with K12 education, education in general, a lot of public projects. So we're constantly fighting this balance of value and cost and long-term needs.

1:46 — Diane Forbes:
Our company has been around since the 80s and we've seen a lot of shifting needs and requirements technology available since that time. And I've had the pleasure of being here for the last decade or so. And we've got a great team here that works through challenges and problems with our clients around this connectivity issue.

2:05 — Todd Harpel:
Great. Thank you for being with us. And let's just jump right into it.

Why Clients Need Extended-Distance Copper Cabling
2:09 — Todd Harpel:
As you know, and I know, this extended distance, copper cabling channels going beyond 100 meters is really hot in the industry right now.

2:18 — Todd Harpel:
Have you been asked about this by your clients?

2:21 — Diane Forbes:
So we aren't asked specifically, "Can you go extended distance?" right?

2:25 — Diane Forbes:
But usually what happens is there will be an area or a location that a client wants to cover, and we tell them that it's it's really longer than the distance that they should be trying to go with a particular solution.

2:39 — Diane Forbes:
And then at that point, it usually becomes a question of, well, how do we do that and evaluating the things.

2:46 — Diane Forbes:
And often it's, you know, cost versus benefit analysis for the client at that point.

2:51 — Diane Forbes:
So they're asking more in a roundabout way than they are specifically to go outside of the standard, OK, approach.

2:59 — Todd Harpel:
That's actually my next question. Have you ever been asked by a client to design a whole cabling system that uses a maximum channel link that is longer than the 100 meters that's specified by TIA as the basis to design?

3:14 — Diane Forbes:
No, and again, not in in that way, right. We have clients that say we absolutely do not want to go over, which is fantastic.

3:23 — Diane Forbes:
We have other clients that say we have this space available, perhaps there's not a space for a new cabinet or a frame room or something like that, but they will still want to put a device out where they are beyond their length limits.

3:39 — Diane Forbes:
So no, they don't want us to design to it, but often they're willing to try it or accept it if they have a need.

How Far Beyond 100 Meters Are Network Designs Going?
3:45 — Todd Harpel:
Are there specific distances that you've encountered beyond 100 meters that you've been asked to include in your design? And what would be the longest distance you've been asked to include?

3:56 — Diane Forbes:
Yeah, I went looking at this a little bit because anecdotally I was like, oh gosh, I know we have a couple of these, but I really wasn't sure about the the specific distances when I was thinking about this in preparation for our discussion today.

4:07 — Diane Forbes:
And it looks like right around 450 feet is kind of the longest. Every once in a while I'll have something longer.

4:14 — Diane Forbes:
Most recently it was just shy of 450 feet, which is 135-ish meters. And so that is fairly common, right?

4:26 — Diane Forbes:
It's just outside.

4:28 — Diane Forbes:
They don't really want to build a new space to support it. It's less around the ask of that distance, right?

4:34 — Diane Forbes:
And it's more around we've got this location at the corner of a building or at the corner of a field and we really need to cover it.

4:42 — Diane Forbes:
How do we do that? Can we use this? Can we just try it and see what happens? Is usually the conversation.

4:49 — Todd Harpel:
It's funny, when we attend some of the BICSI shows the last couple of years, we've had actually some contractors come up to us and say, hey, you know, I was doing this project and the pathway to get to a certain location was just beyond 100 meters.

5:06 — Todd Harpel:
And you know, we installed your such and such cable and yeah, it worked.

5:11 — Todd Harpel:
And we go, that's good.

5:13 — Todd Harpel:
It's not something that's included in our warranty, but no necessarily, but it's not an uncommon.

5:19 — Todd Harpel:
But to your point, the distances that they tend to want to run lately, it seems like people trying to stretch it further and further.

5:29 — Todd Harpel:
There are different reasons to do that.

Common Extended-Reach Devices: Wireless Access Points and Security Cameras
5:31 — Todd Harpel:
But I guess one of my questions for you would be, are there specific devices that are more common that you need to go beyond 100 meters or is it just a plethora of devices?

5:42 — Diane Forbes:
Yeah. For us, mostly what we're seeing is either wireless access points or cameras, some kind of security device.

5:48 — Diane Forbes:
And depending on how mission critical that is, we can say go ahead and try it or I wouldn't recommend it, right.

5:54 — Diane Forbes:
If this is the area where we know there's all kinds of incidents happening and we're trying to monitor it for perhaps forensic evidence down the road, we're not going to suggest that you go outside of your distance limitation because we have no way to really leverage the standards or the expectations within the industry.

6:13 — Diane Forbes:
The other thing that you'll find is that sometimes the manufacturers of those devices aren't going to support the device, right?

6:19 — Diane Forbes:
It's not working well. How long is your cable run?

6:23 — Diane Forbes:
So depending on how critical the application is, you know, they they may be willing to risk it or not.

6:29 — Diane Forbes:
But yeah, mostly we are seeing cameras and APs as the needed device way out yonder, right.

Device Support, Standards, and Warranty Risks Beyond 100 Meters
6:38 — Todd Harpel:
And I think one of the missing elements today very often is the support of those device manufacturers, right.

6:47 — Todd Harpel:
I think today if you were to ask Cisco to help you with a non-functioning device that's happens to be 120 meters from their switch, they're going to say you're on your own because they're designing their equipment specifically to IEEE standard, which doesn't specify distances.

7:08 — Todd Harpel:
Well, it doesn't actually. IEEE doesn't specify distances at all. They specify specific electrical performance, which the TIA, as you know, has built into their standards to accommodate. So it's really TIA standards that justify or, you know, legitimize anything that is 100 meters.

7:27 — Todd Harpel:
And if you go beyond that, then then you're kind of going outside of the scope of where you really need to be for full support of all your equipment manufacturers.

7:37 — Diane Forbes:
Yeah, you're exactly right, Todd. And I think that's one of the big reasons why even though these solutions are out there that work to varied degrees, we're hesitant to recommend them because we will really want to leave clients with a solution that they can rely on and trust is going to work day in, day out.

7:54 — Diane Forbes:
And if it doesn't work for some reason, you know, we usually set them up with designs that will provide a manufacturer's warranty on the cabling side of things.

8:03 — Diane Forbes:
But if it is an overlength cable, even if it's with a manufacturer that's going to warrant it on an overlength channel, if they can't get the device to work and then they don't have a warranty on the device, now we've kind of put them in an untenable situation.

Cost and Infrastructure Challenges of Extending Network Reach
8:21 — Todd Harpel:
Have you included other methods of supporting devices that are beyond 100 meters from a closet that may be supported by warranty?

8:29 — Diane Forbes:
I know that we have done things, but I don't know that they were actually warrantied.

8:33 — Diane Forbes:
I think it was when that the clients were willing to risk, you know, it'll work or it won't work. But because we don't have the budget right now, the best thing we can do is try it and see.

8:45 — Todd Harpel:
Sure. You talk about budget and you briefly mentioned the installation of another room or at least another cabinet that houses an additional switch and those kinds of things.

8:59 — Todd Harpel:
And more often than not, that's a a cost that is pretty high when you compare that to just running the cable, you know, an extra 10, 20, 30 meters.

9:12 — Todd Harpel:
That extra cost is, let's say, more than they want to spend with the understanding that there's a certain risk factor that they, if they can't get the device to work with a standard copper cable beyond 100 meters.

9:26 — Diane Forbes:
Yeah, that's it. And you know, a lot of the buildings that we work in, it's remodeled.

9:30 — Diane Forbes:
Some of them are very old buildings, maybe not historic, but old enough that when they were designed, power requirements were very different.

9:38 — Diane Forbes:
So it's this cascading effect of we need to add a cabinet, we need to add a frame room.

9:44 — Diane Forbes:
First challenge is even finding the space to do that, right.

9:47 — Diane Forbes:
Maybe there's a an actual closet in the space that we can kind of tuck something into. Maybe there's not.

9:53 — Diane Forbes:
And now we're sticking this box on a wall that is used, and are we sticking it high enough up that it's out of the way, but then we can't service it?

10:02 — Diane Forbes:
Or are we sticking it down low enough that we can service it?

10:05 — Diane Forbes:
But now it's really kind of in the way of the use of the space.

10:08 — Diane Forbes:
So you've got that, You've got this consideration of power and grounding and bonding and all of the things that we should see in this space, whether it's a cabinet or a purpose-built room.

10:18 — Diane Forbes:
Now in an older building, perhaps your panel won't even support that.

10:22 — Diane Forbes:
I mean, these are just cascading things that I want to add an AP at the edge of my stadium sounds like a simple ask, when actually there's quite a lot more that could come into play.

10:34 — Diane Forbes:
And that's where we start to see clients risk it initially to see what they can get.

Could TIA Create a Standard for Copper Beyond 100 Meters?
10:40 — Todd Harpel:
Yeah, I know you have participated in the TIA standards document development for a long time, as have I.

10:46 — Todd Harpel:
And do you think that TIA would ever consider creating a new standard like the 568 standard for copper cabling with a maximum distance that goes over 100 meters?

10:59 — Diane Forbes:
That is an interesting question. I know that they are interested in exploring it. I don't know whether we'll ever actually see a standard come out of it.

11:08 — Diane Forbes:
You know, and one thing I didn't mention before is that, you know, we have fiber solutions that will go these extended distances and there are hybrid cables that will carry both, you know, the power and the signal.

11:21 — Diane Forbes:
So it's not that there isn't a solution out there, but a lot of times our clients at least aren't interested in, you know, having to convert that signal.

11:32 — Diane Forbes:
And so this is, I think, the biggest push for the extended copper cabling versus a solution that might already be out there.

11:40 — Diane Forbes:
So with TIA, you've got a lot of folks saying, well, we already have a solution for this.

11:45 — Diane Forbes:
Why are we trying to find a new solution? But we also need to recognize that there is a need and a call for this in the industry. Whether or not we actually get there is a different question.

11:55 — Diane Forbes:
We're working on a white paper to kind of explore the possibilities and see what makes sense. And as a kind of parallel effort, there is a TSB in process. But I'm still really interested to see where we land on this.

12:09 — Diane Forbes:
One of the things I really appreciate about TIA is the actual testing that goes into these documents. This isn't just, hey, we think it'd be great to have a longer channel. Let's just go ahead and write it into the standard.

12:21 — Diane Forbes:
There is a significant amount of work that goes into whether or not we accept this as a standard or how we craft it as a standard before we get this guidance out into the community and into the industry.

TIA Technical Guidance for Extended-Distance Copper Cabling
12:35 — Todd Harpel:
It was a little bit of a sidestep, but no, I'm glad you mentioned the TSB because I think for the audience that's not familiar, a TSB is a technical services bulletin.

12:45 — Todd Harpel:
It's sometimes misconstrued as a standard, a compliance standard, but in reality it is technical guidance, right?

12:53 — Todd Harpel:
It is not a, a document that you design to, it is a document that says, if you want to try this, here are the things you need to consider. Correct.

13:04 — Todd Harpel:
So a TSB, as you mentioned, we are trying to create this document.

13:09 — Todd Harpel:
And one of the things that you mentioned is, is TIA does great work in really vetting the technical merits of any document they put out.

13:19 — Todd Harpel:
And there's a lot of testing that goes on.

13:21 — Todd Harpel:
And TIA is made up of many different industry players and most, if not all of the manufacturers in our industry, participate on these standards committees.

13:32 — Todd Harpel:
So it is a consensus document that will be giving specific guidance on the technical merits of going extended distances.

13:42 — Todd Harpel:
So for me, the TSB document is going to at least inform the end user or the designer on here are the things that you need to be aware of.

13:52 — Todd Harpel:
Here are the things that you need to take into account in the in the environment and those kinds of things.

IEEE, TIA, and the Future of Extended-Reach Ethernet Standards
14:01 — Todd Harpel:
On the flip side, you know, we do have IEEE that develops the actual Ethernet transmission standards.

14:07 — Todd Harpel:
Do you think they'd ever kind of look at another version of the Gigabit Ethernet or fast Ethernet standard that would incorporate longer distances than 100 meters?

14:18 — Diane Forbes:
You know, I've heard rumors, I am not actively involved in IEEE, but some of our colleagues are.

14:24 — Diane Forbes:
And you know, I've started to hear rumblings that there might be some interest in picking up some of this.

14:29 — Diane Forbes:
And I think that's really important, especially if TIA is going to consider any kind of a standard around this.

14:35 — Diane Forbes:
I think any group, IEEE, TIA or others that are doing this in a silo really run the risk of kind of breaking the whole ecosystem of a standard, right?

14:46 — Diane Forbes:
The whole point is so that we can have some assurances that our systems will work.

14:52 — Diane Forbes:
And when we don't have people playing together to make sure that it's going to work end to end, not just the cabling but the devices that we're attaching to it, we really run the risk of doing a disservice to the industry.

15:03 — Diane Forbes:
And so I am hopeful that we will get lots of people looking at this challenge, lots of people looking at this problem across all of these different organizations put together a solution that really is viable.

15:18 — Diane Forbes:
So I mean they they are working on the single pair Ethernet, which they've got a spec to support up to 500 meters.

15:25 — Diane Forbes:
So perhaps we're starting to look that way and I hope so.

Single-Pair Ethernet for Industrial and Building Applications
15:29 — Todd Harpel:
Yeah, you mentioned single pair Ethernet, which is some may not be very familiar with that technology, but it's been around for some years.

15:37 — Todd Harpel:
Fact, I was just talking to some partners in Asia that have some solutions and they're really seeing in Asia and Europe it be deployed primarily in in industrial environments because it's very compatible with some of the older protocols that were for industrial controls like Profinet and those kinds of things.

15:57 — Todd Harpel:
So the big question mark is will it actually start to appear in equipment that is used in commercial buildings for HVAC control or other things like that?

16:10 — Todd Harpel:
So. I was just going to say, I think you're exactly right.

16:12 — Diane Forbes:
This building controls and industrial applications is exactly where we're hearing most about it.

16:17 — Diane Forbes:
We haven't been deploying it or, you know, designing it in yet.

16:21 — Diane Forbes:
But again, you start to see silos in how some of these systems are designed.

16:25 — Diane Forbes:
And you've got MEP, mechanical, electrical and plumbing engineers working on certain systems, and then teams like mine that are working specifically on your Ethernet cabling for Internet and some of the other applications that we're supporting.

16:39 — Diane Forbes:
So I do think it will be interesting to see where all of that lands and when we start to see it really being considered for more than just the industrial application.

Fiber, Media Converters, and Other Extended-Distance Options
16:48 — Todd Harpel:
Yeah, we mentioned other methods of deploying longer distances from a closet.

16:56 — Todd Harpel:
Do you ever have a rule of thumb where you recommend the use of optical fiber connections or media converters?

17:03 — Diane Forbes:
No, that's the simple answer. It's our clients.

17:06 — Diane Forbes:
We haven't done it since I've been with the company. 

17:09 — Diane Forbes:
And not to say it's wrong, it's just not a methodology that our team or our clients have really embraced.

17:16 — Diane Forbes:
And I think it's the converters really, they don't like anything that they have to convert. It just it appears as a a point of failure whether or not it actually is right.

Real-World Performance of Copper Links Beyond 100 Meters
17:25 — Todd Harpel:
Have you had any clients that you mentioned earlier that you recommend to your clients that if they want to try something that they are prepared maybe for failure, but you're not specifically saying yes, this is blessed.

17:38 — Todd Harpel:
Do you have any clients that have made their own decision to connect a device further than 100 meters and then experience some problems?

17:45 — Diane Forbes:
Yeah, it is pretty hit and miss. I have more anecdotal than hard evidence, but I can think of at least one high school where they went out quite a ways beyond 100 meters and that was for wireless access point and and it worked, but it would just downshift right to the lower speeds instead of what the device was really capable of.

18:07 — Diane Forbes:
There was another one out camera I think out in a pool area. It was nearly 500 feet I think. That one we did end up having to add a mid-span power device to even get it to work.

18:20 — Diane Forbes:
So yes, we've seen it happen as far as actually installing the stuff, but we've also seen it not be very reliable or you know, just not really be operating at the capacity we'd like to see for these items.

Mission-Critical Applications and Environmental Risks
18:33 — Todd Harpel:
And you mentioned earlier too that if it's a mission critical is involving the security of your site or maybe even access to your site with access control devices.

18:44 — Todd Harpel:
You know, those things can be very, very important.

18:47 — Todd Harpel:
And if you have intermittent problems or another application I think of is an IP blue emergency phone on a college campus, right, You do not want those to have intermittent failures if they're beyond 100 meters.

19:02 — Todd Harpel:
You want them to be completely functional at all times, so.

19:05 — Diane Forbes:
Yeah, that's exactly it. And I think also we have to think about the environment, right?

19:11 — Diane Forbes:
With TIA, we tend to test and recommend based on a worst case.

19:14 — Diane Forbes:
It may work when you do this inside of a temperature-controlled building where we have relatively stable conditions throughout the year.

19:24 — Diane Forbes:
But if you're thinking about running something outside or potentially, you know, a lot of the school districts that we work with, they turn off the building air systems during the summer.

19:35 — Diane Forbes:
And if it gets really, really hot in those buildings and there's no air, you're having some drastic swings and temperatures and that can definitely affect the performance of your cable.

19:45 — Todd Harpel:
Absolutely. And the other thing that we've been asked quite often is we need to connect this device and it tends to be in a non-temperature controlled environment like a parking garage or a athletic field or outside the building for security cameras where you've got a section of the cable maybe running in a conduit across this top of a building outside.

20:08 — Todd Harpel:
And that those temperature strains can be very significant.

20:11 — Todd Harpel:
And what we're cautioning people is, hey, this could be working great when it's springtime and it's 70° and everything's fine.

20:20 — Todd Harpel:
And then as soon as summer hits, all of a sudden your camera is not working because the temperature increase has been, you know, overcome what the capability of the cabling can handle.

20:31 — Todd Harpel:
Because temperature increases means that your insertion loss increases and your DC resistance increases and you're no longer getting enough power to the device.

20:40 — Diane Forbes:
Yeah, that's exactly it. I think you bring up a great point. Most of these extended reach devices, none of them are in the perfect conditions. That's the whole point, right?

20:51 — Diane Forbes:
It's usually a difficult place to get to and we're just trying to stretch everything to make it work.

20:57 — Diane Forbes:
And unfortunately, that's going to be likely the worst case scenario for any kind of non-standard application and installation.

Advice for Deploying Copper Cabling Beyond 100 Meters
21:07 — Todd Harpel:
Well, Diane, is there any other advice that you'd like to give our listeners on their potential for going beyond 100 meters?

21:18 — Diane Forbes:
I would just say be cautious. Go in with eyes wide open.

21:21 — Diane Forbes:
There may be good business reasons why you want to go ahead and try it, but you really need to be honest about what you're trying to get out of it, what you're expecting, what kind of support you might need from manufacturers on that end device.

21:35 — Diane Forbes:
And a seek out maybe the advice and the guidance of people who are doing this a lot.

21:42 — Diane Forbes:
Whether it's the manufacturer of whatever product you're trying to install or you know, someone like our firm that does this on a day in, day out basis.

21:49 — Diane Forbes:
Just make sure that you know what it is you're getting into.

21:52 — Todd Harpel:
Exactly. Well, thank you so much, Diane. I really appreciate your being with us today.

21:57 — Diane Forbes:
Hey, not a problem.

Closing
22:02 — Roy Chamberlain:
Beyond Bandwidth is a podcast series produced by Leviton Network Solutions.

22:06 — Roy Chamberlain:
For more information on the topics we talked about today, as well as other enterprise or data center network infrastructure content, or to check out all available episodes of Beyond Bandwidth, visit us on the web at leviton.com/beyondbandwidth or wherever you normally listen to podcasts.

22:26 — Roy Chamberlain:
If you enjoyed this episode, we'd appreciate you leaving an honest review in your podcast application.  Along with word of mouth, leaving a review will help others find our show.

22:36 — Roy Chamberlain:
I'm Roy Chamberlain and this was Beyond Bandwidth. Until next time.

Beyond Bandwidth Podcast – Season 3, Episode 4

OneReach PoE Extended System: Long-Distance Power and Data Over Hybrid Fiber and Copper

Introduction to OneReach PoE Extended System
0:03 — Roy Chamberlain:
Hello everyone and welcome to Beyond Bandwidth, Leviton's podcast series where we dive into network technology's hottest topics.

0:12 — Roy Chamberlain:
I am your host from Leviton Network Solutions, Roy Chamberlain.

0:17 — Roy Chamberlain:
I am with Matt Schumacher, Senior Applications Engineer with Leviton Network Solutions.

0:23 — Roy Chamberlain:
Matt is an expert on Leviton's answer to network channel extenders, the OneReach PoE extended system.

0:31 — Roy Chamberlain:
We break down the hard questions on this solution for long distance Power over Ethernet runs.

Meet Matt Schumacher: Senior Applications Engineer
0:40 — Roy Chamberlain:
Welcome to Beyond Bandwidth, Matt. Tell us a little bit about your background and what your role is at Leviton.

0:47 — Matt Schumacher:
I am a physicist by training, but I am a Senior Application Engineer here at Leviton.

0:52 — Matt Schumacher:
My role here is to basically help, not only facilitate customers as they need help or as they need guidance on what products to use with whatever the application they have.

1:04 — Matt Schumacher:
I also work in the R&D areas in order to represent customer contractors with our products to make sure that they are robust enough and able to handle basically whatever the customer may need.

1:16 — Matt Schumacher:
I've been with the company originally through Berk-Tek prior to our acquisition for 18 years total now.

1:23 — Roy Chamberlain:
Wow, wow. And I have worked with you, Matt, and it's interesting here in your background from your perspective because you are very detailed, something I always appreciate.

1:32 — Roy Chamberlain:
You know, when we were working on the specification for OneReach, you had some great feedback. And I love getting feedback.

1:38 — Roy Chamberlain:
It's funny, when I work on specs or documents, a lot of times people just look at the content, but the grammar and the spelling and the conciseness, those are just as important. And you were always good at pointing things out to have good alternatives.

1:54 — Matt Schumacher:
I've gotten some people to sometimes find it slightly annoying.

1:58 — Matt Schumacher:
We just like, come on, we just want to finish this document.

2:02 — Roy Chamberlain:
Right. Why'd you have to see that one thing? It's been passed over by, you know, three other people and they were OK with it.

2:10 — Matt Schumacher:
Yeah. No, it can be amazing sometimes, but I pride myself and I I try to look for those things, whether people think they're important a lot. You know, I think dotting the i's and crossing the t's are are necessary.

2:22 — Roy Chamberlain:
So agreed.

What Is OneReach and Where Is It Best Utilized?
2:23 — Roy Chamberlain:
So we're talking a lot about extended distance over copper in this third season of Beyond Bandwidth and for devices over 100 meters away.

2:32 — Roy Chamberlain:
And the main reason we invited you as a guest is because of your expertise on Leviton's OneReach solution.

2:38 — Roy Chamberlain:
So with that, what exactly is OneReach and where is it best utilized?

2:45 — Matt Schumacher:
So one way to think about OneReach is that physically it uses both copper and fiber in order to do the extended distance.

2:54 — Matt Schumacher:
It is more of a actual copper extended distance solution that just happens to use fiber.

3:00 — Matt Schumacher:
What it is is essentially you have your closet, you have your network switch, you know, your classic set up there.

3:06 — Matt Schumacher:
And most people go, hey, I just need to reach out to say that parking lot or that guard shack that's at the end of the road and there's a quarter of a mile down the road.

3:16 — Matt Schumacher:
So what you can do with that is just take advantage of the fact that fiber is able to go that further distance.

3:23 — Matt Schumacher:
Yeah, what you do is you essentially just do media conversion, take that copper, and you go to fiber.

3:29 — Matt Schumacher:
The downside is fiber is also horrible at being able to transmit power, class as an insulator. It's just not going to happen.

3:39 — Matt Schumacher:
So what you do is under that same jacket, you put copper conductors. We use 12-gauge. That gets us a significant amount of distance.

3:47 — Matt Schumacher:
And then at the other end, you plug in that 12 gauge into the remote and then you media convert back and inside that remote you also have all the circuits to handle all the PeeWee handshakes.

3:58 — Matt Schumacher:
So the device then just goes, hey, I need this much power, essentially give it to me, powers up, activates, and as far as that device is concerned, it's plugged in all the way back at the original switch.

4:10 — Matt Schumacher:
So there's no knowledge to it that it's actually going through this whole media conversion. It's what we would say is invisible to the network.

Hybrid Fiber and Copper Applications for Long-Distance PoE
4:20 — Roy Chamberlain:
So you talk about the fiber with the copper and the media converters. I mean, with this, is it something Leviton looks into? Are there products that already have that where they they allow the copper and the fiber to connect directly into a device?

4:37 — Matt Schumacher:
Oh, yeah. There are actually a number of items that can do that with regards to using a hybrid cable.

4:42 — Matt Schumacher:
There's the distributed antenna system. That's one of your classic examples of where a hybrid cable gets used. And that's just to help again deliver that Class 2, Class 3 power to the remote device.

4:54 — Matt Schumacher:
Another area that I've seen it at is actually wireless access points. A number of them are starting to have fiber interfaces to handle, you know, the higher bandwidth and then have direct 56 full DC power input and then you just plug it directly into the switch.

5:09 — Matt Schumacher:
The best application is the 10/100/1000 Base-T style applications. Where you're going to see that happen is your security cameras, your access device.

5:20 — Matt Schumacher:
Again, think like a guard check where you have to, you know, swipe an ID badge in order to open a gate. That would be a perfect PoE item. Blue light emergency phones that you might see on a college campus.

5:33 — Matt Schumacher:
Yeah, I've seen OneReach used a number of times there as it can power the phone, it can power the camera.

5:40 — Matt Schumacher:
Basically you put a 4-Port in the in the numerator enclosure in the base, and you got all the devices there powered up.

5:47 — Matt Schumacher:
And we also see it used for outdoor access points. So number of times we'll use access points in order to keep the Wi-Fi going throughout the campus. Most of those can be handled by Gigabit and therefore OneReach will take care of it.

Grounding and Surge Protection for Outdoor OneReach Deployments
6:02 — Roy Chamberlain:
So because of the long-distance reach, like you said, there are many outdoor applications which can benefit from the system.

6:10 — Roy Chamberlain:
How do we address the grounding and lightning protection within the OneReach system? For instance, you know when your head in resides in an IT room inside a building and then the devices are outdoors which is which is typical.

6:22 — Matt Schumacher:
First, I'm going to start with I am not a local authority having jurisdiction. There are just two too many different areas with all different requirements.

6:31 — Matt Schumacher:
So anything I say is going to be more high level. OK. And any of the listeners should be going to the local authority having jurisdiction, which honestly should always be the case whenever you have a code-related question.

6:43 — Matt Schumacher:
The general requirements, I'm going to start in the head end side of things is that yes, everything needs to be grounded and it can go back to the ground that you would already have your primary bus or your secondary bus that you already have on that data rack or in that enclosure.

7:01 — Matt Schumacher:
You just tie it in via normal copper conductor and it's as easy as that.

7:05 — Matt Schumacher:
I should also mention we do have a general grounding guideline actually on our website at leviton.com/onereach.

7:13 — Matt Schumacher:
The remote side is a little more difficult just because it's not necessarily tied into the building ground. Most of the time what you'll do is actually just put in a ground rod at that location and then tie that in and then bring it up through a cable gland into the the enclosure that you're going to be using outdoors. And then you would tie it to that ground and that'll give it a ground path.

7:34 — Matt Schumacher:
One of the big things to remember is that surge protection, which is why we require this grounding. Surge protection doesn't work without a ground. And, and that's true of AC power strips and that's true of OneReach. If you don't have a ground, you don't have surge protection. It's as simple as that.

7:54 — Matt Schumacher:
And surge, most people think when they think surge, they're going, oh, it's lightning. Well, I'm not in a lightning area. It doesn't matter. And it it's like, no, it it does.

8:04 — Matt Schumacher:
Surge events can occur when basically a power blip occurs through the power grid. Suddenly the voltage rises up and then goes back down to nominal, you have a search event. Depending on where components are located that could couple into the wire and then travel down. And then all of a sudden you hit the device. And if you have no place to shunt that energy aka ground, you basically have a problem and it has to go into the device itself and hits all the circuitry and causes issues.

8:36 — Roy Chamberlain:
OK, that's thorough and that hits all the bases on that.

8:39 — Roy Chamberlain:
So like you said, the authority having jurisdiction is most important and it's good that we have solutions to address probably anything that they're going to require.

Designing a OneReach System and Bill of Materials
8:49 — Roy Chamberlain:
So the OneReach goes well beyond the complexity of a standard passive solution that we typically design, you know, in structured cabling in our industry. Most of our stuff is cabling with drops on triangles, passive components that will connect to a network.

9:05 — Roy Chamberlain:
But the OneReach, how does someone design and create a bill of materials for a OneReach?

9:10 — Roy Chamberlain:
Because it is more complex than just the the cables and jacks and, and stuff like that.

9:16 — Matt Schumacher:
So the, the best way to approach it, I find is think of the remote side first. Don't worry about the head end.

9:24 — Matt Schumacher:
So what I mean by that is what are you looking to power? Are you looking to power a camera? Are you looking to power a wireless access point? So you start with that.

9:33 — Matt Schumacher:
What power level is it? Is it PeeWee? Is it PeeWee Plus? Is it 60 watt? Is it 45 watt is 100 watt?

9:39 — Matt Schumacher:
You know what have you?

9:40 — Matt Schumacher:
Is it non-standard that that could potentially be an issue too.

9:45 — Matt Schumacher:
Then from there you have to figure out, ok, what is the distance I need to go?

9:51 — Matt Schumacher:
And in in the case of OneReach, we'd normally more think about two different types of distances.

9:56 — Matt Schumacher:
You have your copper connection distance that's from the remote to whatever the network power device is.

10:03 — Matt Schumacher:
And then you have that hybrid cable distance and that's basically between the head end equipment and the remote.

10:10 — Matt Schumacher:
So there's a couple different techniques you can also use to do that.

10:13 — Matt Schumacher:
But normally when we talk about distance, we're more focused on that, that hybrid cable distance.

10:20 — Matt Schumacher:

A lot of times that copper cable will kind of take care of itself. And I'll touch on that in a moment.

10:26 — Matt Schumacher:
And then from there, we actually have our own worksheet that we've have our customers fill out. It's really easy. You just fill out the distance, that hybrid cable distance, and then you just plug in what are the devices going to be or what type of power level are they?

10:43 — Matt Schumacher:
You plug it in and then you can just send it in to appeng@leviton.com, and we create the bill of material from there. In the background we're kind of taking care of figuring out, OK, what is the head end, how much power do they actually need a grand total?

10:57 — Matt Schumacher:
How many power supplies does that turn into if you go to use like a chassis, OK, how many chassis will that, how many devices will that actually support with one chassis?

11:07 — Matt Schumacher:
Do you need to go to two or more?

11:08 — Matt Schumacher:
And hence the head end kind of takes care of itself.

PoE Power Levels, Distance, and Device Compatibility
11:11 — Matt Schumacher:
Some of the other considerations and, and if you ever go on and take a look at our distance tables, yeah, you'll kind of see this where we have a distance table in line where we address,

11:22 — Matt Schumacher:
OK, what if you have 100 meters between your remote and your head end?

11:27 — Matt Schumacher:
And what if you only have 10 meters?

11:30 — Matt Schumacher:
So one of the things you can look at there is go, OK, why do you even have two different distances?

11:35 — Matt Schumacher:
Yeah. Hey, standard says 100 meters from everything.

11:39 — Matt Schumacher:
What we do with that 10 meter one is we just essentially say, all right, most installations are going to be on a pole.

11:48 — Matt Schumacher:
Fair enough that most poles aren't going to be 10 meters, which is, yeah, you're, you're talking like 32 feet, but they could be.

11:56 — Matt Schumacher:
Yeah, it's a kind of a good round number.

12:00 — Matt Schumacher:
But if you sacrifice your 100 meters down to 10, you can put basically the loss of power you would have and use the 12-gauge, 12-gauge being a larger gauge than patch cords, which are typically 24-gauge, allows you to push that out much further.

12:18 — Roy Chamberlain:
OK, so now you can go significantly further distance just by using less the horizontal length in between the remote and the connection.

12:28 — Matt Schumacher:
Yeah, Now on the worksheet you don't even have to identify that.

12:31 — Matt Schumacher:
We'll take care of knowing which one of the two you need to use.

12:34 — Matt Schumacher:
So, OK, that's a simplicity there, but that's why we had that there.

12:39 — Matt Schumacher:
Then I should also mention in the worksheet, and this is going back to that HPOV thing I mentioned, is that we do ask for part number for the 60 watt devices.

12:46 — Matt Schumacher:
The reason for this is before IEEE 802.3bt was ratified, people wanted 60 watt devices, you know, pan tilt zooms with heaters. Right.

12:58 — Matt Schumacher:
And so Company A decided I'm going to do it this way, I'm going to implement it, you know, using these pairs.

13:02 — Matt Schumacher:
Company B said, now I'm going to do it this way, I'm going to implement it using these other pairs.

13:06 — Matt Schumacher:
Company B said, now I'm going to do it this way, I'm going to implement it using these other pairs.

13:12 — Matt Schumacher:
Company C said, now I'm going to do it this way and I'm only going to use two pairs.

13:16 — Matt Schumacher:
And before you know it, you had three incompatible options.

13:20 — Matt Schumacher:
And then that's on top of going, well, I decided to flip flop which pairs are positive and negative.

13:27 — Matt Schumacher:
It became a Wild West.

13:29 — Matt Schumacher:
Now some of those devices still exist.

13:32 — Matt Schumacher:
And sometimes what will happen is people go, well, I know it's 60 watt.

13:36 — Matt Schumacher:
I see 60 watt in the list.

13:38 — Matt Schumacher:
I'm going to specify it.

13:40 — Matt Schumacher:
And then we get the part number.

13:41 — Matt Schumacher:
And here the camera is really an HPOE camera.

13:45 — Matt Schumacher:
Then we have to determine if it is that, because it's not standards compliant, we have to go through and figure out, OK, we have a remote that kind of works with one of these older options.

13:55 — Matt Schumacher:
Will that device actually work for what we have available?

14:00 — Matt Schumacher:
Personally, I would, it's hard to do this, but I would lean on the camera manufacturer and say, hey, get standards compliant.

14:06 — Matt Schumacher:
There's a good reason standards exist, but we'll try and work as best as we can.

14:11 — Matt Schumacher:
But this is some of the work that we have to do on our end to figure out are these devices actually going to be compatible. Right.

14:18 — Roy Chamberlain:
Yeah, makes sense anyway to encourage the clients to use a a standard based PoE because it's not only OneReach, right, that uses that standard. Exactly.

14:29 — Roy Chamberlain:
You're probably going to have some of the devices plugged directly into the switch.

14:32 — Roy Chamberlain:
And the last thing you want to do is have to deal with, well, now I got to have this midpoint, right, PoE injector just for this one camera, just because it's not compatible with my PoE switch and that means I'm not even using that PoE capability. 

Why Leviton Applications Engineers Design OneReach Systems
14:47 — Roy Chamberlain:
So I think you answered a lot of this, but what are the reasons why OneReach kind of must be designed by Leviton applications engineers?

14:56 — Matt Schumacher:
So one of the reasons we have this worksheet to fill out and all is, in the past we've had customers who go, oh, I know this, I can handle this. I'll just read it from the catalog.

15:09 — Matt Schumacher:
And then what'll happen is I get a phone call going, hey, I'm not getting link between my main and remote.

15:16 — Matt Schumacher:
I ask them for the part number. They gave me the part numbers and I go, well, the main problem is you got a multimode on the head end and you got a single-mode on the remote end, and you're using multimode cable.

15:27 — Matt Schumacher:
That's the reason they're not communicating.

15:29 — Matt Schumacher:
Or you got, at the time we used to have 100 Base-FX and then we would have 1000BASE, say SX or LX.

15:36 — Matt Schumacher:
And either way, they're not getting link. Yeah. This creates customer frustrations.

15:41 — Matt Schumacher:
This creates issues in this regard because now they have to wait and reorder and these are all made to order products.

15:48 — Matt Schumacher:
And now it turns into, I'm stuck with this thing that does me no good.

15:53 — Matt Schumacher:
So we go through and we just say, hey, we can design these things.

15:56 — Matt Schumacher:
We'll turn them around and we'll prioritize turning around.

15:59 — Matt Schumacher:
I mean, I think they can get it done in about an hour.

16:03 — Matt Schumacher:
I can't guarantee that value, but our technical services group is very quick about getting these things turned around.

16:09 — Matt Schumacher:
But it ensures that when you order those parts, it's going to work. 

16:16 — Matt Schumacher:
End, end of statement. It just, it removes a lot of frustration.

16:20 — Matt Schumacher:
I just know from the feedback I've heard that everyone's been happy with this worksheet-style system.

16:25 — Matt Schumacher:
Makes it much, much easier to be able to handle it.

Expanding an Existing OneReach System
16:28 — Roy Chamberlain:
So is that the same thing? Even so, let's say I I had a system designed, I have a college campus.

16:35 — Roy Chamberlain:
I sent my worksheet in. We have a chassis. There's some extra ports on there.

16:41 — Roy Chamberlain:
Hey, why can't I just buy another remote and a cable and plug it into that extra port on the chassis?

16:46 — Roy Chamberlain:
Is there anything wrong with doing that or or do I have to send another worksheet in?

16:50 — Matt Schumacher:
So the answer to that is, well, maybe? So it might work, it might not.

16:58 — Matt Schumacher:
And the reason for that is the power supplies only can support so much power with each individual one.

17:05 — Matt Schumacher:
The dilemma is it's not as easy as going, well, one port corresponds to this much of a slice of that power supply.

17:12 — Matt Schumacher:
OK. It may be one like, for example, 100 watts each power supply is going to support, we call 2-1/2, I can explain that, but essentially 2 devices per power supply.

17:24 — Matt Schumacher:
So if one media converter, half of it may not be useful if you have multiple 100 watts.

17:30 — Matt Schumacher:
So you would see maybe two media converters, but those last two ports may not be able to support any devices because you're utilizing everything.

17:38 — Roy Chamberlain:
OK, real quick to just close the loop on that. The half is just so that if anyone goes, hey you, you're saying I only need 2 power supplies?

17:48 — Roy Chamberlain:
If it was just two, you know 2 + 2 is 4.

17:51 — Roy Chamberlain:
Why are you saying I can support 5 devices on 2 power supplies?

17:56 — Roy Chamberlain:
That's where the half comes in.

17:58 — Roy Chamberlain:
It's just to signify that when 2-1/2 and 2-1/2 added together, it becomes 5.

18:02 — Roy Chamberlain:
OK, OK.

18:04 — Roy Chamberlain:
A lot of our customers will ask like, oh, what about this number? What about this number? I'm doing the math.

18:10 — Roy Chamberlain:
We want to just help facilitate and make that a little easier for them.

18:15 — Roy Chamberlain:
With the growth of the system and the upgrades for the new PoE applications that have been passed, Type 3 and Type 4 over the last few years, there's definitely some complexities.

18:27 — Roy Chamberlain:
And like you said, in addition to HPOE, which was kind of before standardized the 802.3, Type 3 and Type 4.

18:37 — Roy Chamberlain:
So. And not necessarily compatible with Type 3 and Type 4. Exactly.

18:41 — Matt Schumacher:
That's the one dilemma. Some of them are, some of them are not.

18:44 — Roy Chamberlain:
So it shows why it's so important for these requests to be kind of vetted through Leviton, which I can tell you, I know I have to do it and our reps do.

18:54 — Roy Chamberlain:
And generally it's turned around almost immediately.

18:58 — Matt Schumacher:
Yeah, it's I just don't want to commit to anything. Right. Too fast, just in case someone's like, hey, I've waited 30 seconds, where's my BOM?

19:09 — Matt Schumacher:
So I will say when adding devices, the best thing to do is almost summarize what do you already have. Right.

19:15 — Matt Schumacher:
And if you have a BOM ID, just give us the BOM ID and then just say this is on top of the BOM ID.

19:21 — Matt Schumacher:
Or ask us. We keep a copy of all our BOMs. So it's very easy for us.

19:26 — Matt Schumacher:
If you go, hey, I have this BOM ID, I want to add to it, could you just send me a copy?

19:30 — Matt Schumacher:
Yeah, we can send you a copy, you modify it, you pop in the new devices and then we can recalculate.

19:36 — Matt Schumacher:
And then we just figure out the difference and just go, hey, this is what you need to add to it.

19:40 — Matt Schumacher:
Maybe it's a, you know, you need one more power supply and maybe it's just go ahead and add it.

19:45 — Matt Schumacher:
You're, you already got the budget in there, all's good.

19:48 — Roy Chamberlain:
But it's always good to just double check and just to make sure.

19:51 — Roy Chamberlain:
So otherwise what's going to end up happening as you plug in your new fancy camera and nothing happens. 

OneReach Technical Support and Troubleshooting
19:58 — Roy Chamberlain:
So another question, I mean, because there are different pieces and parts in in it and there are passive parts, a lot of the contractors that install the OneReach, again are, are not network engineers. They're not audio visual contractors. A lot of times they're mostly installing passive-type devices.

20:16 — Roy Chamberlain:
So if I'm out on site and I have a question or I have something that's not working, what's the best way for me to to solve that or get support?

20:33 — Matt Schumacher:
The best way is honestly to reach out to appeng@leviton.com or give a call to our tech support line. OK.

20:39 — Matt Schumacher:
From there you'll get TSR. They're going to ask some basic questions and then depending on it, if that might be enough, if they need to escalate it, they'll honestly be coming to me. 

20:48 — Matt Schumacher:
And then I'll be working with the customer and probably asking follow up questions.

20:52 — Matt Schumacher:
And then based off of that input, I would say what would immensely help is either if you had that BOM, provide it right away or a list of the part numbers, detailed steps of what you've already done.

21:05 — Roy Chamberlain:
Yeah, that's a good point.

21:07 — Matt Schumacher:
Otherwise, I'm honestly going to ask the question of what's already done.

21:09 — Roy Chamberlain:
Yeah, yeah.

21:11 — Matt Schumacher:
They'll just say, oh, I know this is the case. Sometimes these issues aren't as obvious as it seems. And a lot of times it can come down to the device wasn't there or something wasn't grounded.

21:21 — Matt Schumacher:
I had one teacher in high school say pictures are worth 1000 words and at least a few points on the test.

21:26 — Roy Chamberlain:
Right.

21:27 — Matt Schumacher:
They are phenomenally helpful as having good, clear, detailed pictures.

Closing
21:34 — Roy Chamberlain:
Well, great. Matt, this was great.

21:36 — Roy Chamberlain:
I mean, I've been working with this system for a while and definitely learned a lot just in talking to you on this episode.

21:43 — Matt Schumacher:
Not a problem.

21:49 — Roy Chamberlain:
Beyond Bandwidth is a podcast series produced by Leviton Network Solutions.

21:53 — Roy Chamberlain:
For more information on the topics we talked about today, as well as other enterprise or data center network infrastructure content, or to check out all available episodes of Beyond Bandwidth, visit us on the web at leviton.com/beyondbandwidth or wherever you normally listen to podcasts.

22:13 — Roy Chamberlain:
If you enjoyed this episode, we'd appreciate you leaving an honest review in your podcast application. Along with word of mouth, leaving a review will help others find our show.

22:23 — Roy Chamberlain:
I'm Roy Chamberlain and this was Beyond Bandwidth. Until next time.

Beyond Bandwidth Podcast – Season 3, Episode 5

Extended Distance Network Design: Field Applications, PoE, Grounding, and Infrastructure Solutions

Introduction: Extended Distance Design and Implementation
0:04 — Roy Chamberlain:
Welcome back to Beyond Bandwidth, Leviton's podcast series where we dive into network technology's hottest topics.

0:12 — Roy Chamberlain:
I am your host from Leviton Network Solutions, Roy Chamberlain.

0:17 — Roy Chamberlain:
In this episode, we are joined by two leaders in our industry, Patrick Aldrich, a Partner and Senior Technology and Security Consultant at ECC Technologies, and Coty Burgess, a Principal and Account Manager of the Rep firm Morgan Hill Marketing, both stationed in upstate New York.

0:38 — Roy Chamberlain:
We discussed the fine points from the field level on design and implementation of extended reach applications and solutions.

0:50 — Roy Chamberlain:
OK, welcome to the show gentlemen. This is going to be the first episode featuring two guests at the same time on Beyond Bandwidth.

0:57 — Roy Chamberlain:
So kind of trying something a little new this time out in the great Rochester, NY area.

Meet the Guests: Patrick Aldrich and Coty Burgess
1:03 — Roy Chamberlain:
So now we have Coty and Patrick.

1:05 — Roy Chamberlain:
Patrick, can you tell us a little bit about your background?

1:08 — Patrick Aldrich:
Yeah. So I started my career as a network engineer. Through the years I transitioned from the operations side to the design and consulting side. Today I'm a senior technology and security consultant as well as a partner at ECC Technologies.

1:22 — Patrick Aldrich:
So my my day-to-day work really focuses on designing IP-based systems, surveillance, access control and the associated infrastructure related to that.

1:33 — Roy Chamberlain:
All right, great. What about you, Coty?

1:35 — Coty Burgess:
So I came into the industry in 2019, came on at Morgan Hill and then recently transitioned into a partner at Morgan Hill. And myrole really is to do business development and educate and entertain is what I like to say. My role is out in the market.

1:54 — Coty Burgess:
So that could be for contractors, that could be for end users, that could be for engineers, you know, anybody that is interested in telecommunications or network infrastructure.

2:06 — Roy Chamberlain:
All right, great. Well, thank you. And it's a good dynamic.

2:09 — Roy Chamberlain:
I see here for us to kind of get into this kind of murky topic of extended distance applications over copper cabling.

Where Extended Distance Applications Are Needed
2:17 — Roy Chamberlain:
So we're going to start right off with Patrick first towards you. What areas are you asked for extended distance applications? You know, basically PoE and/or data requirements, which are over 100 meters in distance. Where where are you getting those requests? You know, what types of devices and applications are you seeing that?

2:35 — Patrick Aldrich:
So we see extended distance applications most often in our large environments where devices are spread out.

2:42 — Patrick Aldrich:
Think outdoor cameras on poles or Wi-Fi access points in stadiums or parks. Warehouses and manufacturing facilities are another big one because it often, you know, specialized machinery requiring connectivity without the space for a dedicated TR room within 100 meters. Right.

2:59 — Patrick Aldrich:
So essentially anywhere anyone wants to power and connect IP-based systems beyond the standard 100 meters, we're really asked to design solutions that extend that PoE and data reliably.

3:12 — Patrick Aldrich:
Typically that's through a hybrid fiber optic cabling solution, such as OneReach, or an extended distance copper cabling.

3:20 — Roy Chamberlain:
OK. Coty, are you seeing the same thing or are you seeing other types of applications as well? What are you seeing?

3:27 — Coty Burgess:
No, I see a lot of that same thing. What I specifically get asked for is extending camera applications.

3:35 — Coty Burgess:
So just trying to cover somewhere that does not have good visibility, right. And that could be a public safety issue.

3:42 — Coty Burgess:
And that's kind of what I'm actually seeing more of is that these things are no longer nice to have us, but it's becoming a public safety-type issue where it's a must have now.

Why Demand for Extended Distance Is Increasing
3:53 — Roy Chamberlain:
OK. So out of these requests that you received, Patrick, are you seeing these more frequently or more diverse requests than they were in the past? And if so, where did you start to see the increase, you know, in these requests for your designs?

4:07 — Patrick Aldrich:
So they are definitely more frequent and more diverse than they used to be. When I first started out as a network engineer, you know, most PoE applications were pretty straightforward. You had phones, a few cameras and some access points, you know, all within that 100 meter limit.

4:23 — Patrick Aldrich:
But over the past decade we've really seen a big shift as IP systems expand into things like billing automation, large scale surveillance, outdoor Wi-Fi, the demand for the extended distance solution really took off.

4:37 — Patrick Aldrich:
To your second question, the turning point was really the late 2000 tens, you know, high-powered PoE standards came out and smart building and IoT deployment started accelerating.

4:48 — Patrick Aldrich:
So that's really when our clients began asking us to connect devices hundreds of meters away, whether it's in warehouses, campuses, outdoor environments without building new telecom rooms or running separate electrical lines. So since then, these requests have only grown and today they're really a regular part of our design work at ECC.

5:08 — Roy Chamberlain:
OK, all right. Good. So Coty, when did you see an increase of extended distance? Did you see this start getting trendy in your experience?

5:18 — Coty Burgess:
Well, I came in in 2019, so it wasn't the 2000 tens for me. But during COVID I started to see a lot more extended distance applications.

5:30 — Coty Burgess:
And you know, my gut tells me that that was due to people no longer needing to focus on their core network at that point. And then they were like, OK, well, let's look to other areas that we can tackle.

5:43 — Coty Burgess:
And those areas ended up being extended distance and gaps in security, gaps in their coverage that they had. And then it just has continued.

5:54 — Coty Burgess:
Like it doesn't seem to be slowing down. Once a customer does it once, they want to do it more and more. And what else can I do? How else can I extend this and go further, right? 

6:03 — Roy Chamberlain:
And then you talk about COVID, there were a lot more empty spaces, right? So having surveillance for unmanned spaces in areas, probably that might be part of it.

Environmental and Pathway Challenges Beyond 100 Meters

6:15 — Roy Chamberlain:
Now, moving on to all of these things, just like you said, Coty, so now you're seeing even more requests for things like this extended distance applications with the different types of devices and requests. What are the primary challenges you're experiencing in providing solutions for these extended distances?

6:33 — Coty Burgess:
I would say some of the primary challenges are historically when you were doing an indoor cabling solution, just a horizontal cable, you only had the 300 feet.

6:43 — Coty Burgess:
So you were running through indoor environments and your indoor environments were only influenced by EMI and other types of devices that could influence that cable.

6:54 — Coty Burgess:
And now you're able to run a lot further, You know, you're able to run through more environments and different pathways that you couldn't previously, Yeah. Due to the 300 foot distance requirement.

7:08 — Coty Burgess:
So now that you can go much further, it brings you into different environments and that can be through areas in your facility that you couldn't get to before.

7:20 — Coty Burgess:
And now you're tackling two different environments within one cable pole or three.

7:25 — Coty Burgess:
And then the whole challenge of going from indoor to outdoor is another area where you essentially have to follow outdoor code requirements than just indoor.

7:36 — Coty Burgess:
So getting people to understand the different environments and the opportunity for more environmental influences on the cable is where I see the challenge.

7:49 — Coty Burgess:
Yeah. Because they're like, OK, extended distance, great, I'm just going to run it.

7:53 — Coty Burgess:
But when running further distance, there's just more environment that that cable is going to go through, and that will affect the performance.

8:03 — Coty Burgess:
So considering those things is getting people to recognize that, before they just run a cable and hope for the best.

8:10 — Roy Chamberlain:
Yeah. So there's a lot of other needs when we're dealing with extended distance that pop up.

8:17 — Roy Chamberlain:
I never really have seen that as much myself because I'm not as deep on that side with kind of the other areas like the pathways and things like that.

Grounding, Lightning Protection, and Outdoor Deployments
8:26 — Roy Chamberlain:
So Patrick, how do you address the grounding and lightning protection on extended distance solutions which end up going outdoors?

8:33 — Patrick Aldrich:
Yeah, when we're extending the PoE beyond 100 meters, outside grounding and lightning protection are critical to our designs.

8:41 — Patrick Aldrich:
We typically use a layered protection so that surge devices in line on the 18-gauge conductor from the chassis location, second surge device on the conductors at the far end, and then we put a third one in between the IP endpoint and the remote module.

8:58 — Patrick Aldrich:
We typically use a product like DITEK for that, for their protection on the outdoor cameras and access points. On the cabling side,

9:06 — Patrick Aldrich:
OneReach is excellent for us because it combines the fiber for the long run with the copper for the power delivery, so we can push it hundreds of meters reliably.

9:15 — Patrick Aldrich:
And together, those approaches really let us deliver an extended distance connectivity without sacrificing any safety or performance.

9:22 — Roy Chamberlain:
OK. Coty, from your perspective, you're seeing a lot from the contractors who have to put these things in and end users. Are you getting questions and requests about the lightning protection?

9:34 — Coty Burgess:
Yes, but it usually doesn't go in as much depth as what Patrick is usually getting into. They just ask, does this need to have lightning protection? And yes, is the answer.

Extended Distance Solutions That Work in the Field
9:46 — Roy Chamberlain:
So Patrick, what solutions have worked well for you and your clients supporting extended distance applications?

9:52 — Patrick Aldrich:
Yeah, so we've worked with a bunch of different solutions like I said, whether it's kind of the long reach copper cable or the hybrid, and the gold standard in our kind of master spec for this type of deployment has become a hybrid fiber technology and it's typically the Leviton OneReach system.

10:11 — Roy Chamberlain:
And, and what's the hardest part in trying to design and implement these solutions you mentioned or other solutions that you've worked with?

10:18 — Patrick Aldrich:
So the the hardest part isn't usually the technology, it's more making sure all the details line up.

10:24 — Patrick Aldrich:
So from a comprehensive drawing and spec package, proper grounding, proper surge protection and really coordination across trades so that the infrastructure is safe and reliable.

10:36 — Patrick Aldrich:
That's really where the hardest part comes in, especially in the outdoor environment.

Improving Extended Distance Design and Implementation
10:41 — Roy Chamberlain:
And is there anything that could be made better in addressing extended distance products that would make it easier or better in your opinion?

10:49 — Roy Chamberlain:
I mean, I know including Leviton's products, you know, there's a lot of requirements, right?

10:54 — Roy Chamberlain:
You have to make sure this is inside a Pneuma box.

10:56 — Roy Chamberlain:
You know, you have other different requirements, other ideas out there that you get from your clients or your team that looking to make things easier or better.

11:07 — Patrick Aldrich:
You know, I think if I could wave my magic wand and make it easier, I'd like to see more of a partnership between companies like Leviton and companies like DITEK, really integrating the protection into the OneReach family.

11:20 — Patrick Aldrich:
Because having that distance, power and protection built into a single, unified system would really simplify the design and reduce the risk even further.

11:30 — Patrick Aldrich:
But for now, our approach of combining OneReach with DITEK really sets the benchmark for how we approach these type of deployments.

 

Beyond Bandwidth Podcast – Season 3, Episode 6

Extended Distance Over Copper: PoE, Engineered Links, and Network Design

Introduction to Extended Distance Over Copper and Specification Engineering
0:04 — Roy Chamberlain:
Here we are again at Beyond Bandwidth, Leviton's podcast series where we dive into network technology's hottest topics.

0:12 — Roy Chamberlain:
I am your host from Leviton Network Solutions, Roy Chamberlain.

0:16 — Roy Chamberlain:
In today's episode, I speak with Ron Kotwica, the Specification Engineer for Leviton Network Solutions out of Chicago. Ron supports and guides clients and the Leviton sales team on needs and issues with respect to all technology and structured cabling needs. Many times that includes devices that require Power over Ethernet and are farther than 100 meters away from their network switch. We discuss his experiences and how he engineers solutions to solve this matter in real time on a daily basis.

Meet Ron Kotwica: Network Design and Specification Engineering
0:55 — Roy Chamberlain:
Welcome to the show, Ron. So can you tell us a little bit about your background and what your role is at Leviton?

1:02 — Ron Kotwica:
Yes, Roy, thanks for having me today.

1:04 — Ron Kotwica:
Well, I've been with Leviton for 15 years now. I've been with the spec team since 2016 and gained my RCD credit in 2019. I've been with the data center design team prior to that when I first came to Leviton in 2010. And then I was offered the opportunity to join the spec team and I stepped out of my comfort zone.

1:28 — Ron Kotwica:
My background was in Cisco switches and servers, being a network engineer. Being on the specification team, it really allows me to work with some of the most talented people in the industry, from consultants to integrators to contractors, small and large end users.

1:49 — Ron Kotwica:
They're different in all their deployments, strategies, how they design, and being in this role allows me to be a subject matter expert, educator, designer and the trusted advisor to my teams.

2:02 — Ron Kotwica:
I love learning about the new technologies and keeping up with the latest and greatest in cable designs. And in this position, it keeps you on your toes, that's for sure.

2:12 — Roy Chamberlain:
And what was your primary role as part of the data center design team?

2:17 — Ron Kotwica:
So in that role, it was beginning of the data center era, you know, when we were kind of getting into that component of designing, and the data centers were back to Ethernet and structured cabling and storage area networks. And I was in charge of gathering the proper information that was needed for Ethernet cabling, whether it was copper or fiber or sand InfiniBand, and then creating drawings, bills of materials and helping the specification team in aiding our our larger customers with data center designs in the newer data centers that we're growing.

2:59 — Ron Kotwica:
OK, so you're up in the Chicago area.

3:03 — Roy Chamberlain:
And another thing that Leviton has up there is Leviton Live. Just for everyone to know, you know, that's the space where we have a lot of Leviton products. We bring customers and clients there to kind of show them the products. We have meeting rooms and, you know, we spend a day of it going through all the stuff, sometimes multiple days, talking about specific topics or, or whatever it is.

3:25 — Roy Chamberlain:
And, and Ron, you have the luxury of, of being there. You go there often?

3:30 — Ron Kotwica:
I do, I try to utilize the facility as much as possible. We have so many great consultants and contractors within the city limits and in the suburbs, but it allows us to bring in folks to view what we have that you can see all of our business units in this one facility and we can showcase the Network Solutions. And we also have a large training room. We have entertainment. So, you know, if we have clients, we can have bring in lunch and we can have great conversations. And it's meant to be kind of a a total experience of what Leviton offers.

4:08 — Roy Chamberlain:
Yeah. Yeah. I know it's a great space. I've been there once and it's a lot of fun.

Extended Distance Over Copper for PoE Devices
5:14 — Roy Chamberlain:
So this season of our podcast, Beyond Bandwidth, is focused on extended distance over copper, that being devices requiring data and power, sometimes just data over 100 meters away, which is the standard.

5:28 — Roy Chamberlain:
What solutions are you helping to specify that Leviton offers for for these instances? Extended distance is like the new buzz next AI.

5:39 — Ron Kotwica:
Obviously AI is what everybody's talking about, but with PoE being utilized so much, I think clients are wanting to push that limit of the PoE as far as they can.

5:49 — Ron Kotwica:
The limiting factor is always going to be just how far, right? We don't know anything but what the standard says, and that's at 100 meters.

5:57 — Ron Kotwica:
But most of the designs I've been involved in are usually extending video cameras that are PoE beyond that 100-meter standard. And WAPs are being extended in warehouses or it's just that one device that's got to go further and we just need to install a drop or an Ethernet for connectivity. So placement of those devices in a remote or hard to reach area are the majority of the devices with that I'm seeing that are being installed. Yeah. Most devices becoming internet of things, we have to push that limit and sometimes we have to redesign or we have to use a separate product than just our typical Ethernet.

Copper, Fiber, and OneReach Extended-Distance Solutions
6:38 — Roy Chamberlain:
So what other products are you using?

6:42 — Ron Kotwica:
So obviously we your 100 meters are the limit just like the standard says. But we do have some other options.

6:49 — Ron Kotwica:
We have tested a lot of our copper, and we have solutions that paired with the proper jacks and patch cables, we can get beyond that distance and send Power over Ethernet to transmit without losing packets or loss of signal. We also have Network X centers that allow us to use fiber optics to go beyond the the long 100-meter distance and even further.

7:17 — Ron Kotwica:
And what that does is that plugs into an active device that can transmit the data over the fiber optic cable.

7:25 — Ron Kotwica:
And then on the remote ends, we can make that change and transfer it over back to an Ethernet connection along with power in that cable. So it's like a composite cable.

7:36 — Roy Chamberlain:
So you have the OneReach system, which you're going further distances because you have fiber, right? So that's what gives us the distance and in the copper and that fiber allows us to go even further.

7:47 — Roy Chamberlain:
And then, like you talked about, the standard copper products that we have with jacks and cable, we have tested them to certain limitations above the 100 meters.

What Is an Engineered Link for Extended Distance?
7:58 — Roy Chamberlain:
When Todd Harpel talks about especially using extended distance over copper, which is mainly category cable with the typical passive products, he mentions the term engineered link in our standard structured cabling. You put it in and, and everything that lands in that bucket for that performance level, you know, can work for it.

8:17 — Roy Chamberlain:
Can you explain what he means when he's saying engineered link as far as extended distance over copper, why that would be specifically different than maybe it's typical structured cabling?

8:28 — Ron Kotwica:
Well, with the structured cabling, it's your typical 4-connector model and that's what we're connecting our Ethernet traffic through connecting servers to switches or routers.

8:40 — Ron Kotwica:
An engineer link is we're using all of the products that have been tested and a cable that can withstand more PoE over it with a specific jack that allows us to meet that criteria and get to that link to bring up the devices on each end. 

How Specification Engineers Design Extended-Distance Channels
9:00 — Ron Kotwica:
So, for specific devices, specific situations. So as a specification engineer, what benefit are you able to provide to contractors, engineers, consultants when they need to connect devices, specific devices which are farther away? We kind of evaluate the entire channel. We don't just look at, hey, there's device going from position A to position Z, You know, our team, we ask questions about the PoE devices being utilized, how far is the actual cable run?

9:33 — Ron Kotwica:
We then ask questions about the speed, you know, is it 10 Mg or are we doing 10 Gig? Depending on what that is, we ask questions about the environment that they're being installed in. That makes a difference. Is it going to be indoor, outdoor or possibly both? Right.

9:50 — Ron Kotwica:
We'll ask about if the runs are able to support the standard 4-connector model, and then will it support speeds over 1 Gig?

9:58 — Ron Kotwica:
So, we're able to offer some different copper solutions that fit the channel we are supporting and then able to use our fiber-to-copper converter if that distance needs to go beyond that typical, you know, 140- and 150-meter sweet spot that we have.

When to Engage a Leviton Specification Engineer
10:17 — Roy Chamberlain:
So when's the right time to reach out to Leviton spec engineer in general when you're contemplating your cable infrastructure or having to deal with this?

10:26 — Ron Kotwica:
I would say every time. Any time there's any kind of design that requires connectivity, whether it's regular connectivity for Ethernet or we're going beyond that 100M standard, we are trained to know that.

10:39 — Ron Kotwica:
We have folks like Todd on our team that are part of TIA that can help train us. And we also have a lot of information that we're able to share.

10:48 — Ron Kotwica:
We're able to evaluate the designs, you know, look for alternatives and use best practices to create that solution that not only works today, but also if they upgrade something later down the line, the future connectivity can use that same structured cabling.

11:07 — Roy Chamberlain:
I mean, Leviton's a big company and there's a lot of resources. So the spec engineer is just the kind of the tip of the spear with all that behind us, right, to be able to offer when we're going into a problem or an issue or, or a solution.

Common Challenges Beyond the 100-Meter Cabling Standard
11:20 — Roy Chamberlain:
So what issues or problems have you experienced when dealing with things beyond 100 meters?

11:27 — Roy Chamberlain:
Any obstacles that come into play when you're dealing with this or any issues. What what do you come into problems with some of these requests and applications?

11:36 — Ron Kotwica:
So the main issue I usually run into is when a client purchased a device such as a camera and doesn't know the specs needed for the connectivity to it. Think of the solution as like an entire working system and not just a cable that plugs into an Ethernet port.

11:53 — Ron Kotwica:
Is the category cable rated to go beyond that 100 meters? Are the jacks rated to support that cable? Is the switch capable of supporting that speed today and in the future? Many times a designer just wants to put in a long patch cord with plugs, plug it in and call it a day.

12:09 — Ron Kotwica:
But a lot of times that has to be utilized in the future for an upgrade because cameras or WAPs are, the longevity of them is a lot shorter than it used to be, the lifespan and they're being replaced more often with higher end bandwidth, more pixels. So we're seeing a lot more of that.

12:25 — Ron Kotwica:
But always it's not a structured design if you're just using one long patch cord. Right. Plus, if the camera device is upgraded, like I said, usually can't reuse that cable. So we don't want to have that problem. We want to utilize the investment as well as we can.

Engineered Links, IDF Avoidance, and Device Requirements
12:40 — Roy Chamberlain:
We're positive towards what we might call an engineered link because we can solve an issue without having to put in a brand new IDF, right? I mean, that's the whole purpose of 95% of these extended distance applications is to avoid having to put in a new closet, a new IDF switch, patch panel, power, HVAC, real estate to cover a few devices that are out of range. But the downfall is we talked about an engineered link is for a specific device.

13:09 — Roy Chamberlain:
So if OneReach is a good example, you know, if I'm using the OneReach system with the fiber and copper and I have a camera on there that is type 360 or 70 watts of power and that's the standard IEEE 80.2 standard PoE, then that's great. But if I go in and I put a camera in that doesn't use standardized PoE, maybe it's Type 4 or some other requirement.

13:33 — Roy Chamberlain:
Maybe the speed requires more performance instead of 1 Gig, it's 2-1/2 Gig or something like that. I'm not saying that happens, but you know now that that engineered link won't work for that device. And same thing with the over copper. It gets a very specific because there's so many variables that are in there.

The Future of Extended-Distance Copper and PoE Networks
13:51 — Roy Chamberlain:
So with that being said, on those lines, as the topic continues to expand, because you and I have been in this and and everyone else in the industry has been talking about this for at least three years, probably closer to four years, where do you see the industry going yourself as far as dealing with extended distance applications?

14:11 — Ron Kotwica:
I think it's going to continue to grow and push the limits of copper. Just how far can we go?

14:17 — Ron Kotwica:
I mean, affordability along with functionality is what we strive for and what we're going to design to. I think the industry is moving to high resolution cameras, faster bandwidth, faster NIC cards, and the need to be up 100% of the time and not have any packet loss.

14:36 — Ron Kotwica:
Utilizing that structured solution that offers a warranty backed by a company that does extensive research like we have and also done testing with temperature rise and fall, especially living in somewhere like Chicago where we see that high and low temperatures, the quality of the switches and obviously the NIC cards, we have to understand that complete channel. So it's very critical for us to design around that.

15:04 — Ron Kotwica:
I think PoE is driving more products to be on that network and utilize the network switches more than we've seen before because now the switch is acting as a power device. So more devices mean more switches, which in turn means more congestion on the network. So I think everything kind of snowballs and we see more and more being taxed on the network and network designers and engineers being more in charge of what's going on on my network and they have to segregate things.

15:47 — Roy Chamberlain:
Well, thank you for joining us and thank you for all the information.

15:51 — Ron Kotwica:
All pleasure to participate and as always, fun to talk to you and catch up a little bit.

15:57 — Ron Kotwica:
Thanks, Roy.

Closing

16:02 — Roy Chamberlain:
Beyond Bandwidth is a podcast series produced by Leviton Network Solutions.

16:07 — Roy Chamberlain:
For more information on the topics we talked about today, as well as other enterprise or data center network infrastructure content, or to check out all available episodes of Beyond Bandwidth, visit us on the web at leviton.com/beyondbandwidth or wherever you normally listen to podcasts.

16:26 — Roy Chamberlain:
If you enjoyed this episode, we'd appreciate you leaving an honest review in your podcast application. Along with word of mouth, leaving a review will help others find our show.

16:36 — Roy Chamberlain:
I'm Roy Chamberlain and this was Beyond Bandwidth. Until next time.

Beyond Bandwidth Podcast – Season 3, Episode 7

Testing Extended-Distance Copper Cabling: Standards, PoE, and Field Certification

Introduction: Testing Extended-Distance Copper Cabling with Confidence
0:04 — Roy Chamberlain:
Welcome to Beyond Bandwidth, Leviton's podcast series where we dive into network technology's hottest topics.

0:11 — Roy Chamberlain:
I am your host from Leviton Network Solutions, Roy Chamberlain. In Season 3, our topic is extended distance applications and primarily extended distance using category copper cabling.

0:23 — Roy Chamberlain:
Since these applications are beyond the industry standard limits, how do we test these alternative solutions with confidence?

0:31 — Roy Chamberlain:
In this episode, our guest host, Todd Harpel, meets with Jim Davis, a Senior Product Application Specialist at Fluke Networks.

0:39 — Roy Chamberlain:
Their discussion is loaded with answers to testing questions everyone needs to hear.

Meet Jim Davis: Fluke Networks Testing Expertise
0:47 — Todd Harpel:
Well, welcome everyone to our podcast on cabling beyond 100 meters using copper. Today we are talking with Jim Davis, Product Application Specialist with Fluke Networks. Welcome, Jim.

1:01 — Jim Davis:
Hey, glad to be here. Thanks for having me.

1:04 — Todd Harpel:
We're excited to talk about this. There's a lot of people out there that are curious about how you would test and you know a lot of the things that go on when you are doing installations that are necessary to give your customer the final verification of all of the channels you've installed.

Why Copper Links Beyond 100 Meters Fail Standard Certification
1:21 — Todd Harpel:
I know one of the questions that often comes up for us is when an installer goes to test an installed link or channel as part of their final qualification,

1:31 — Todd Harpel:
what typically happens when a link is longer than 90 meters or our channels longer than 100 meters?

1:37 — Jim Davis:
Oh, big trouble. The structured cabling police come chasing them down.

1:42 — Jim Davis:
No, sorry, just real quick. We're just, we're going to run a test, we're going to measure signal, we're going to measure noise. But the limit that you pick is what's going to determine what's acceptable or not.

1:53 — Jim Davis:
Sometimes people have, they've got an emergency phone in a parking lot. We've got limits for that. That'll go farther. But I'm sure you're referring to things like a TIA 568 limit. Now you can go over it a little bit, 10% it it, it understands that. But after that you're probably going to fail for length.

2:13 — Jim Davis:
Now, that might be because you've got the wrong NVP, the speed of the signal in the cable. But if that's correct, you'll feel lengthened and after that, in pretty short order, you're going to feel something called propagation delay. And then the signal strength insertion loss decreases with distance.

2:29 — Todd Harpel:
I had a feeling that was the case of having been on job sites in the past, in my past life and witnessed the testing.

2:36 — Todd Harpel:
Certainly there are situations where you get a, a fail on your test result and then you always start to look at what is it that failed.

2:44 — Todd Harpel:
But one of the other questions that I have is let's say you're measuring to TIA CAT6 and all your other parameters like crosstalk, insertion loss, return loss, wire map, even propagation delay all fit within the expected parameters, but you're still longer than 110 or 110 meters.

How Cable Length, NVP, and Propagation Delay Are Measured
3:05 — Todd Harpel:
Will the tester still show a failed result?

3:09 — Jim Davis:
Yes. Now in that condition that you're painting for me, where you pass insertion loss and especially propagation delay, sometimes it's not quite understood how we measure the length.

3:20 — Jim Davis:
We're actually measuring the length in time. We send a pulse down the cable and we see how long it takes to get back to us. Divide that in half and that's in time how long the cable is.

3:30 — Jim Davis:
Now a variable is the nominal velocity of propagation, the speed of the signal in the cable. So if you have the wrong NVP or the wrong speed of the signal in the cable, yeah, you might get a false failure for length. And that would be called out because you passed insertion loss and you passed propagation delay.

3:48 — Jim Davis:
A curious thing that some of our audience might save for bar trivia at a BICSI show. There's some subtle differences between the TIA 568 standard we use here in North America and the International, the ISO 11801 standard.

TIA, ISO, and IEEE Requirements for Extended-Distance Cabling
4:04 — Jim Davis:
The ISO 11801 standard doesn't have a length limit.

4:09 — Todd Harpel:
And now that you say that, I believe that the IEEE Ethernet transmission standards also do not specify a particular length.

4:18 — Todd Harpel:
They really specify electrical parameters, electrical performance, for the actual signal that the Ethernet speed for which you're testing is going to require to ensure that you have the ability for the receiver to get the transmitted signal and interpret it.

4:35 — Todd Harpel:
I know that Fluke makes a tester that can test installed channels' ability to support a specific Ethernet speed between 10 megabits or 10 gigabits and it's a specific type of tester. Can this actually conduct an Ethernet speed test on a channel that is longer than 100 meters?

4:54 — Jim Davis:
Thanks for that question. And I think we're kind of mixing 2 things there.

4:57 — Jim Davis:
One is, and I'm glad you're bringing it up, the 802f3 standard. We always need to consider today's applications and tomorrow's applications, what people are going to build to, and the 802f3, the Ethernet standard, the IEEE standard is certainly something that people look to. It doesn't say in words you have 100 meters, but it does call out a propagation delay limit. So they're taking that into consideration. They also take into consideration, we've all looked carefully at the cable under the jacket, I'm sure. We know that some of the pairs are a little bit more twisted, some are a little bit less twisted. That'll minimize the noise, the crosstalk under the jacket. But physically, each one of those pairs has a slightly different length.

5:39 — Jim Davis:
The one that's more twisted is a little bit longer. Most of our links are going to have Ethernet installed on them.

5:44 — Jim Davis:
So let's just talk about Ethernet. Ethernet has a tolerance for when that signal can be put back together.

5:52 — Jim Davis:
So if we exceed that tolerance and as the cable gets longer, that delay skew gets wider, we might not be able to support everything.

6:01 — Jim Davis:
Now, thank you for asking about our trustee Link IQ Tester. But the way that Link IQ does its testing is essentially it's measuring against the ISO 11801 limits.

6:13 — Jim Davis:
So we're measuring length and insertion loss and near in crosstalk and return loss, but against kind of those 100 meter values.

6:21 — Jim Davis:
So if your link exceeds 100 meters, say it's 150 meters, we're going to fail that based on the wire map length and also we'll probably fail that based on insertion loss.

6:34 — Jim Davis:
So no, it's not a valid way to test it.

6:37 — Todd Harpel:
The speed for Ethernet. Yeah, I didn't think so.

Why a Green Link Light Does Not Guarantee Network Performance
6:41 — Todd Harpel:
I know that aside from testing, we've had customers come to us and say, hey, you know, we have channels that are beyond 100 meters.

6:49 — Todd Harpel:
We went ahead and hooked up two devices and we got the little green lights to come on, on either end, either on the switch or on the the device, often times a camera or wireless access point, and those green lights come on and we assume that it's going to work. It could work depending on how long you really are.

7:07 — Todd Harpel:
If it's if it's 180 meters, there's less of a chance than it working if it's, you know, 110 meters, but they're assuming that the little green light is actually going to, on the transceiver, is going to actually guarantee that you're going to have a functional piece of equipment.

7:21 — Todd Harpel:
And without the ability to actually see data being passed, or let's say if it's a camera, being able to see the actual image come across, it's tough to say whether that's actually going to be functional or not because I don't think the little green light test is necessarily valued.

7:38 — Jim Davis:
I was going to say that little green light is our biggest competitor. Yeah, I had to prepare a chart about that.

7:44 — Jim Davis:
And our second biggest competitor is your buddy who did this at his house and it worked fine.

7:50 — Jim Davis:
Hey, we did it and it worked. Yeah, I have a real live fun one where they plugged in two laptops and little green light came on and the laptops worked. Then they plugged in the cameras and the cameras didn't work. So obviously it was a camera problem and not a cabling problem.

8:05 — Jim Davis:
Turned out to be a resistance unbalance issue that only showed up when they turned on the PoE.

Testing Power over Ethernet on Longer Copper Channels
8:12 — Todd Harpel:
Right. That's actually what I was going to get to next is the PoE power. I know, we all know that PoE power delivery is DC voltage and the longer the length of the cable, the more the DC voltage drops. And you have a tester that can evaluate channel and indicate the PoE power level that it can support.

8:32 — Todd Harpel:
Can you tell me a little bit about that capability?

8:34 — Jim Davis:
Sure, sure. We try to focus very much on standards compliance.

8:40 — Jim Davis:
I want to kind of preach, here's what the standard says because there's, there's interoperability. And so this is that same link IQ tester that we just found out won't tell us if our 150 meter cable will support 10 gigabits.

8:55 — Jim Davis:
It is testing very much to, speaking of the IEEE, the 802.3 ATAF and BT standards, it'll test out to class 890 watts of power, but it's measuring two things.

9:07 — Jim Davis:
The first thing that it checks for is what is the switch advertising? Different switches, different ages, different capabilities. Older switches can't offer 90 watts of power. And if you have a switch that can offer 90 watts of power, you might not want every port to do that because you've got a lot of devices. So they will advertise what they're capable of offering or what they are told to offer. So we'll measure what is advertised.

9:32 — Jim Davis:
But then we do a load test where we say, hey, you're offering me 90 watts, give me 90 watts. Let me see if I get that much power. So if, and here's the fun thing, the standard, it's just a recommendation. It's a best practice. But the laws of physics come into play as you well mentioned, and there's more resistance there. And when there's too much resistance, we're not going to be able to get that power there.

9:55 — Jim Davis:
So if somebody maybe they bought some cheap cable, some non compliant, some copper coated aluminum cable, you don't even have to go 100 meters on that and you're going to get too much resistance to supply the power level. But if you have perfectly good 6A larger gauge size cable, we are looking for standards compliance. And so if we don't get the power levels that we expect within the expectations of the standard, we'll fail that. So it's not an ideal way to test non-standards compliant power levels.

10:27 — Jim Davis:
I have a little cheap, off brand switch, power over Ethernet switch, I bought for trade shows. It works great and it has standards compliant ports. And then it's got a special port that offers high PoE, which I always translate in South America as hola PoE. But, sorry, I can't resist. But it's not standards compliant. So I would have to have a device from the same off brand company.

10:53 — Jim Davis:
No, no offense to them, but it would have to match up to their special sauce, their secret power supply. So no, our tester is really looking for standards compliance.

11:05 — Jim Davis:
And if you're going outside of what the standards have defined, then no, we're not going to be the best solution for that.

Manufacturer-Specific Test Limits for Extended-Distance Cabling
11:13 — Todd Harpel:
Although today we're seeing most of the major cabling system manufacturers in the market are launching cable or have launched cable or cabling system that includes a special cable designed to support channels longer than 100 meters.

11:29 — Todd Harpel:
I'm curious, is there a way to use a Fluke tester to get, you know, these channels to pass so that they can be submitted to the customer so the contractor can get paid?

11:38 — Jim Davis:
Yeah, absolutely. We appreciate for all my talk about following the standards and the guidance of the standards,  the people say yes. But, I have to put a sensor on the roof to tell me if the fan is going, and it's just too far away. So if I follow the standards, I've got to put another telco room.

11:55 — Jim Davis:
So, I'm going to have a Telco room with a door and a lock and a rack and a smoke detector and a sprinkler head. And it's going to cost me $10,000 to put a $3 sensor on the roof. So I'm going along in those situations.

12:08 — Jim Davis:
The airports are another one where the people are like, no, there's no way we could dedicate three square feet to a cabinet. We need to go long. Work with your connectivity manufacturer to say, here is the application that I want to support. I want to go this far. I need this speed, I need this much power. What do you recommend for me?

12:26 — Jim Davis:
Because I know that you have category 5e and category 6 and category 6A, and no customer is going to say, oh, give me the top of the line thing. They're always going to say that's too expensive.

12:36 — Jim Davis:
But you and your engineering team can work with the customer to say, hey, for this application, we recommend this cable that we have and more.

12:43 — Jim Davis:
We recommend these connectors in this patch panel to go with it to make a complete system to get the performance that you're looking for.

12:51 — Jim Davis:
Now, you need to test that. I don't make the numbers up. I'll reach out to you as the manufacturer and say, what numbers do you want?

12:59 — Jim Davis:
And I know some of your guys from the lab from the Berk-Tek days and they're good people, and they're studying this, and they're saying, what are we capable of doing? How far can we go with this? And they'll say, Jim, here are the limits that I have. Here is the length, here's the propagation delay, the length and time, the delay skew that I want. Here's the new curve of the insertion loss. I need you guys to supply that formula. It's a tricky one.

13:22 — Jim Davis:
And then whether or not we measure loop resistance, what value we use, see how we'll work with the manufacturers. Again, we just take a measurement. You guys can tell us here's where the limit line needs to be so we can make sure it's installed properly. On one hand, I want to tell people, hey, you got a failing result, but it's just length don't worry about it. But I don't want the technicians to have to look at a failing test result and accept it.

13:47 — Jim Davis:
I want it to be green good, they're happy they move on, or red bad something's wrong and I hate to say, oh, it's a little bit long, don't worry about it, but they don't notice that it also failed return loss or something. Sorry, it's kind of a long answer there.

Engineered Links: Matching Cable, Connectivity, Speed, and PoE
14:02 — Todd Harpel:
I mean, I know for us here at Leviton and ARBOR Tech Labs, we've created some a cabling system that allows you to go longer than 100 meters and we've done just that.

14:12 — Todd Harpel:
As you know, we've created the limits that we believe will still allow that channel to function at the specific speed that you're targeting for that particular channel to use, right? You have a specific device.

14:28 — Todd Harpel:
So unlike standardized tests for TIA category, we have a different set of parameters for our specific channel.

14:36 — Todd Harpel:
And it's, I believe if I'm not mistaken, that similar to us, there are other manufacturers out there that have similar test settings, if you will, yeah, for their particular channel. This is something where it's important, and I spent many years going out and defending the standard and saying follow the standard, follow the standard and, and people have resisted.

14:55 — Jim Davis:
I remember saying you need to install four pairs. People like four pairs? You're an agent of the Peruvian and Chilean copper mines.

15:02 — Jim Davis:
I'm only using one pair to transmit and one to receive. I'm only going to install two pairs. I'm like, no, no, please follow the standard.

15:08 — Jim Davis:
Who spent all this time convincing people to follow the standard? People did.

15:13 — Jim Davis:
And the market has accepted the standard and people who followed the standard have made it easy for new things to come out, like voice over IP or Power over Ethernet or NBASE-T or whatever the next thing is going to be.

15:26 — Jim Davis:
I don't know what the next thing is going to be. If I knew what it was, I'd be buying stock at that. But whatever the next thing is, it's going to be designed to work on 100 meters.

15:35 — Jim Davis:
So when somebody comes along and says, oh, don't worry about the standards, do whatever the heck you want, I'm suspicious.

15:43 — Jim Davis:
And so I like your idea of saying, hey, let's be careful about this application can only go this far and we've got a whole package because again, it's not just cable.

15:52 — Jim Davis:
You also have connectors and patch cords.

15:55 — Jim Davis:
Can I use the skinny patch cords with this or do I have to use full size patch cords?

15:59 — Jim Davis:
Do I have to use solid conductor in my patch cords?

16:01 — Jim Davis:
Which patch panel will give me the best performance for this?

16:04 — Jim Davis:
So I appreciate and I would suggest to people who are going to go beyond 100 meters, but for their situation, to work with their supplier to make sure the supplier is going to back up what they're promising the product will do.

16:17 — Todd Harpel:
And I agree with you that when you're going outside the scope of the standard, the term that is thrown around is engineered link, right? Designating that link or that channel to a specific speed, PoE power level depending on how long it is. Because one of the things that I think you'll agree with is that if I want to use Gigabit Ethernet at a longer distance, the capability for the most part is going to be a little bit shorter than if you're using 10BASE-T, for example.

16:50 — Jim Davis:
Absolutely, absolutely. I think the situation that we're running into more often is we've got, like you mentioned, I've got a sensor or I've got that one wireless access point or a security camera mounted outside the building that I can't quite reach the closet inside the building within that 100 meters.

17:10 — Todd Harpel:
And I need a solution for that. And you already mentioned it, there are other methods for accomplishing that, that involve a lot more cost than simply running a cable beyond 100 meters. It's one of those things that we are seeing pretty often.

Growing Demand for Extended-Distance Copper Testing
17:26 — Todd Harpel:
And how often are you being asked about this specifically for like the test parameters and those kinds of things?

17:33 — Jim Davis:
Yeah, I would say today I don't get a lot of questions about how do I test Category 6? People understand that. You know, we like to talk about cabling. This is our life, we enjoy it.

17:43 — Jim Davis:
And yeah, one of the questions, more common questions is, hey, how do I go more than 100 meters? How do I set up the tester?

17:50 — Jim Davis:
The other question is when are we going to get an MPO tester for Versiv™? But that's, that's fiber. So we won't talk about that today.

17:56 — Jim Davis:
But absolutely, people are curious about this and they want to do it the right way because they want to get called back and keep working with that customer in the future. And if they install a link that doesn't work, that's not going to get them back there.

TIA TSB-5073 Guidance for Field Testing Extended-Distance Links
18:07 — Todd Harpel:
Exactly. One of the things I would like to mention is the the standards. We talked about the standards a lot.

18:12 — Todd Harpel:
The TIA TR-42.7 Standards Committee, one of those committees that created a lot of the TIA standards, or most of the TIA standards between TR 42.7 and 42.1 and 42.5, have created all these different standards over the years. And now they're looking at writing a Technical Services Bulletin, or TSB-5073, on extended distance over copper cabling.

18:38 — Todd Harpel:
One thing I want to make sure people understand is that a TSB is not a standard that a cabling system can be designed to. It's a document that gives technical advice on what the risks are and what mitigation factors can be deployed if an extended distance channel ends up not supporting the intended application. I actually happen to be the editor of that particular TSB as I'm part of the TR-42.7 committee.

19:03 — Todd Harpel:
One section of the document is going to give advice on field testing of these extended length channels. If you were to provide input into the committee itself on testing extended distance channels, what are some of the things you would recommend they include?

19:19 — Jim Davis:
Well, first of all, let me thank you for your contribution to the standard because that is a noble job, but also sometimes a little bit thankless. Tough to herd the cats there.

19:29 — Jim Davis:
I kind of hope that there's a comment that says, hey, we encourage you to stay within the limits if you can. I don't want people to go willy-nilly building whatever lengths they can. I hope that there's a limited number of variables. I hope that we don't have a performance for 130 and 150 and 170 and 175 meters. It needs to be understandable for people.

19:50 — Jim Davis:
One of the things that I saw that they're thinking about putting in there is some consideration for the labeling standard, the TIA-606.

19:57 — Jim Davis:
And I like that because the next IT guy needs to know why there's a piece of tape on this one outlet on the patch panel. So they don't upgrade all the cameras the at the at the location and find out that half of them don't work.

20:12 — Todd Harpel:
Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that. The administration of a system that includes mostly TIA-compliant channels, but then also deploys a few extended distance channels and you got to keep track of those particular channels as you administer.

20:28 — Todd Harpel:
The IT manager administers the the whole system. If they don't know that that particular location is, you know, 130 meters.

20:37 — Jim Davis:
Yeah, that was tribal knowledge, and that left three you guys ago.

20:42 — Todd Harpel:
Exactly.

20:43 — Jim Davis:
And so then of course, you're just going to have to take into consideration those parameters that are most affected by the length, the length, the propagation delay, how long it gets takes to get there, the delay skew, the different lengths of the cable, and of course, the loop resistance.

20:57 — Jim Davis:
There's a limit to what PoE is expecting for that loop resistance.

21:01 — Jim Davis:
Of course insertion loss will change because that's so affected by distance.

21:04 — Jim Davis:
That'll probably also screw up the parameters, the attenuation to cross dock ratios, the ACR near and the ACR far end. That's some interesting work.

21:13 — Jim Davis:
And I hope that some of our fancy engineers will also be contributing to that to make sure not only that the cabling people come up with a super fancy cabling solution, but it's something that we can test to.

21:23 — Jim Davis:
We got to, we got to both work on these. Exactly.

21:26 — Todd Harpel:
So I just wanted to mention once again that TSB is not a standard to design to. TIA has routinely issued TSBs because they want to issue technical guidance to people, and they're generally for things that I would say use of a cabling system or a cable for which it's not actually designed for. And I harken back to the days of TSB-155 when 10GBASE- T came out and everybody said, well, can I just deploy 10GBASE-T on my category 6 cabling? Up to 55 meters.

22:02 — Todd Harpel:
Everyone said, well, TSB-155 says if I go only 55 meters, I can. People were starting to design new cabling systems with that in mind, which was not the intent of the TSB.

22:13 — Todd Harpel:
It's a little bit of trepidation that we're developing this new TSB, but we feel it's important that people understand and companies like Fluke that have the ability to do the proper measurements and inform the user of what the capabilities of those longer distances is really important.

22:30 — Jim Davis:
Yeah. We can't be separate of the market. If the market says, hey, I've got to go more than 100 meters and we say no, then people aren't going to follow the standard at all. So we kind of have to give them an out.

22:39 — Jim Davis:
But let's recognize where the years of effort to get people to build the same structured cabling for pairs, RJ45 connectors, batch panels, administration points, they do that everywhere in the world.

22:53 — Jim Davis:
So when someone comes out with a new access method or a new widget, that's going to get great uptake, there's a lot of market for that to work with. So, yeah, there have to be some edges. We can't require six pairs. There's not going to be enough market for that. So I appreciate you bringing up the, the TSB. And again, as much as certain manufacturers would rather say, ha ha, that I've got the secret formula and only I can do this, it's kind of better for the market if people are kind of following the same path to get there.

Conclusion: Work with Your Cabling System Manufacturer
23:23 — Todd Harpel:
Well, I appreciate your time today, Jim.

23:25 — Todd Harpel:
It's been great to talk to you.

23:27 — Todd Harpel:
And I hope that our listeners have understood some of the complexities with these extended distance links, but are reassured that Fluke has the ability to at least inform them of what the capabilities are. And your great advice on make sure you're working with your system manufacturer and getting the proper test limits from them because they're the ones that provided them for their cabling system.

23:51 — Jim Davis:
Yeah, no, Hey, it's been a pleasure. Thanks for reaching out. I very much enjoy the conversation.

Closing
23:59 — Roy Chamberlain:
Beyond Bandwidth is a podcast series produced by Leviton Network Solutions.

24:04 — Roy Chamberlain:
For more information on the topics we talked about today, as well as other enterprise or data center network infrastructure content, or to check out all available episodes of Beyond Bandwidth, visit us on the web at leviton.com/beyondbandwidth or wherever you normally listen to podcasts.

24:24 — Roy Chamberlain:
If you enjoyed this episode, we'd appreciate you leaving an honest review in your podcast application. Along with word of mouth, leaving a review will help others find our show.

24:34 — Roy Chamberlain:
I'm Roy Chamberlain and this was Beyond Bandwidth. Until next time.

Beyond Bandwidth Podcast – Season 3, Episode 8

Season 3 Finale: Extended Distance Over Copper, PARADIGM, and TIA TSB-5073

Key Takeaways on Extended Distance Over Copper
0:04 — Roy Chamberlain:
Welcome to Beyond Bandwidth, Leviton's podcast series where we dive into network technology's hottest topics.

0:11 — Roy Chamberlain:
I'm your host from Leviton Network Solutions, Roy Chamberlain.

0:15 — Roy Chamberlain:
In the Season 3 finale, our guest host Todd Harpel and I break down the season and focus in on a new system from Leviton, as well as important points we must all be aware of as we consider this trending alternative to the standard.

0:32 — Roy Chamberlain:
Well, Todd, we're back together again. To close the loop on the extended distance topic for this season.

0:52 — Roy Chamberlain:
Looking back on this season, we had a really good group of guests.

0:57 — Roy Chamberlain:
It was great the way going from episode to episode, how we kind of, we're stretching the topics to all the different things.

1:05 — Roy Chamberlain:
What would you consider some of the key points expressed during your conversations with your guests?

Lessons from the Season: Reliability Beyond 100 Meters
1:11 — Todd Harpel:
I think what struck me, first of all, was in the conversation with Diane Forbes, we talked about, you know, an actual system designer, a consultant is being requested to place devices that are beyond 100 meters and how often that actually occurs.

1:31 — Todd Harpel:
And in the absence of a standard today and knowing that this is outside the scope of a standard, that Diane was saying, you know, the customers were kind of taking a hit-and-miss, trial-and-error methodology to say, well, let's give it a try, see if it works. And sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't.

1:53 — Todd Harpel:
And I think that's the experience that overall I've heard in in other conversations outside of that conversation with Diane, in that there are times that you set something up, everything runs just fine.

2:06 — Todd Harpel:
And then at other times you do almost the exact same thing at the exact same distance and it doesn't work, which is kind of the nature of going outside of a standardized system, Right?

2:17 — Roy Chamberlain:
And I've seen, and I mean, I've heard similar feedback from engineers kind of like, well, they said it works. And so far so good.

2:26 — Roy Chamberlain:
And it is important because one of the things that I really want to tie in on this episode is getting into, you know, some of those gritty points that I think all of us are going to have to deal with moving forward.

Lightning and Surge Protection for Outdoor Extended-Distance Links
2:38 — Roy Chamberlain:
Another item that has been brought up a few times this season is an issue for many of the extended distance solutions floating around in our industry is implementing lightning protection over extended distance over copper links, you know, which connect to devices which are outdoors. This is a code requirement. So we're not talking about a standard. This is code life safety kind of stuff.

3:00 — Roy Chamberlain:
With that, how does lightning protection from what we know so far, how does that affect distance and performance, especially as you're going outside the the 100 meters?

3:11 — Todd Harpel:
So just like most of the transmission equipment, things like lightning protection, you know, primary surge protection, those kinds of things there have been designed, you know, you can get one that's rated for category 6 or category 6A.

3:28 — Todd Harpel:
Again, just like most of our equipment, it's been designed for a specific performance at 100 meters or at a certain power level or what have you.

3:37 — Todd Harpel:
And what we found in some of the testing we've done is that you're starting to get a little bit more, I wouldn't call it interference, but at least some changes in the transmission through lightning protection that is inconsequential when it's 100 meters, but can have a larger effect beyond 100 meters. And so we're seeing some of these links that are close to, let's say 150, 160 meters.

4:10 — Todd Harpel:
When they come into the building and go through a surge protector, the distance that can actually be supported goes down a little bit.

4:18 — Todd Harpel:
Yeah. How much? It really depends on the total length of the extension outside the building, and it's very dependent on the actual equipment. So there is a level of uncertainty that's introduced when you start to comply with code, which we all have to do.

4:37 — Todd Harpel:
And I think that's something you know, Roy, that we have not had a lot of conversation on in our in the industry in general, because most of the deployments that we've heard about are trying to stretch the absolute maximum.

4:53 — Todd Harpel:
And we've never had someone come in and say, hey, by the way, I inserted this surge protection from XYZ company and all of a sudden my device was not supported anymore. No one's done that. And I tend to believe that people are overlooking that requirement when it comes to, you know, a single run.

5:11 — Todd Harpel:
Maybe they're not really paying attention or maybe they're doing it after the initial inspection by the code inspector for their initial deployment of their system. And then running an extra line and all, it's an afterthought or day two installation where they've got another location that's just outside the building that they will, you know, parking garage or something, and they go ahead and run it without thinking about the need for that search protection. Right.

5:38 — Roy Chamberlain:
You know, it's funny because it's brought up in everything that we do, but yet for some reason in this topic, it's kind of because it's it's been the Wild West. It's like, oh, well, you just run this thing and it works and there just isn't a lot of conversation that's been put on it. And just like you said, I like the way you analyzed it. And you know, when you and Mike Good talked in Episode 2, it was important.

6:02 — Roy Chamberlain:
The details that you brought into everything about the mystery is always going to be in the electronics as we start looming outside of the standard and lightning protection and equipment is going to always be a variable.

Engineered Links and Managing Extended-Distance Variables
6:17 — Roy Chamberlain:
I like the term engineered links, right? It's like, OK, we know what we're working with. And so if we're going to do this alternative to the standard and it makes sense because of extenuating circumstances, right, that's the only time it really should be used, then it needs to be specific. Like you said, it's, there's definitely some question marks no matter what solution that's being used out there depending on on what you're doing.

Leviton PARADIGM and Stadion: A 200-Meter Copper Solution
6:43 — Roy Chamberlain:
So Leviton does have a new extended distance over copper solution coming out and I know because I can find some information on our website for this new solution called PARADIGM. Can you share some insider information on the new Stadion cable and the PARADIGM system that Leviton will be launching soon?

7:04 — Todd Harpel:
We actually previewed this at the last BICSI conference in January, letting people know that we are soon going to have a 200 meter solution for one Gigabit with full PoE support all the way to 100 watts. And that will also support the temperature range that you could encounter outside all the way to 60° C. So, something that's really robust. The cable design was specifically meant for extended distance. It's an outside plant cable gel filled because that was one of the primary applications, I would say, that we saw for extended distance what happened to be mostly outside the footprint of your building, trying to reach camera locations that are outside either on the building or an adjacent building, those kinds of things. So that's what this is designed for.

7:56 — Todd Harpel:
And we're pretty excited that it's called PARADIGM because we're we're shifting the paradigm from where you know, you would be able to only run 100 meters. Now you can run 200 meters and have the full confidence that enough testing has been done to be able to reliably support a wide variety of installation environments of, you know, device types and device manufacturers at these distances that we say we can go with the confidence that we've got all that covered. It's going to be launched here in the second quarter, as we mentioned at BICSI, and we've put some teaser pages up on our website.

8:37 — Roy Chamberlain:
Yeah, it's definitely exciting, especially, you know, a solution that, again, that is more focused on the guarantees of what it can accomplish within the parameters.

TIA TSB-5073 vs. a Cabling Standard
8:47 — Roy Chamberlain:
So as we get into an alternative, we brought this up in previous episodes. They're actually at the beginning too. But with TIA's TSB 5037 Technical Service Bulletin coming out, what is your stance on utilizing extended distance over copper for distances over 100 meters comparably for that as a TSB compared to a standard? What's your perspective on the TSBs versus the actual standard?

9:17 — Todd Harpel:
Yeah, TIA is very good at recognizing the need to inform the industry on technical topics. And you know, part of that is creating industry standards that we all can agree on. And everyone can build their systems too, so that you have interoperability, you have reliability, so you can make sure that everything works properly after you do the installation. And you can even test it. With the TSB, or Technical Services Bulletin, TSB 5073 is being written right now. We have a first draft that's out for comment.

9:57 — Todd Harpel:
And that is again a technical, I would call it information to the reader on if you want to try to go beyond the industry standard of 100 meters, here are the things you should consider from a component standpoint, from a design standpoint, from an equipment standpoint. The TSB is designed to give you mitigation strategies. If it doesn't work. It will also provide some risk assessment for certain deployment distances and application speeds. But again, a TSB is not a standard. A TSB is just a technical document that it gives you information. It is not designed to be a design specification.

10:48 — Todd Harpel:
So you can't go out and say I'm going to design this cabling system to be compliant with TSB because a TSB doesn't require anything. It, in fact, very specifically there are no statements in a TSB that say you shall do anything. It's all, if you want to try this, here's the things you might want to consider. So it's very, very important to understand the distinction between a TSB and a standard.

11:17 — Todd Harpel:
So the TIA TR-42.7 committee is made up of all the different manufacturers in our industry. Almost all of them participate in this committee that do copper cabling, and each one of us will have the opportunity to provide technical input to this document and hopefully give the reader a level of understanding of their, like I said, their risk, their design recommendations, if you choose to do this. Again, everything's recommendations and none of it is a requirement.

11:50 — Roy Chamberlain:
OK, that's good to get that full definition perspective.

11:54 — Roy Chamberlain:
I always consider TSB's kind of specialty tools. It's like technology and common sense. Sometimes you know cost, right.

12:02 — Roy Chamberlain:
There's different situations where it's like, geez, is it good enough to be able to accommodate this? Like for instance, the RJ Male RJ45s, right? They're not part of the standard, but people use them.

12:13 — Roy Chamberlain:
So they came out with the TSB for that, right? So there could be proper testing that could be recommended to use. And I think that was important.

How TIA Technical Service Bulletins Evolve
12:21 — Roy Chamberlain:
So with this TSB 55073, you're involved and you have a draft. I really feel that this technology or this trend is still fairly new because I mean, we've been doing this for a while going farther distances. But within the last couple years is when people have really, or, you know, solutions have been coming out making promises and and like you said it, it works till it doesn't.

12:46 — Roy Chamberlain:
Has there ever been a situation where a TSB comes out and has to come back and be redefined?

12:53 — Todd Harpel:
Oh, sure. If there are additional technical developments that would influence what is in a TSB, the TIA committee would definitely come back and update the TSB. So TSBs do get updated. Any document that's produced by a TIA committee undergoes regular maintenance to make sure that it continues to be relevant.

13:16 — Todd Harpel:
So yes, I would anticipate that if there are new technical developments or let's say suddenly you have a new Ethernet standard that has this distance capability beyond 100 meters that IEEE comes out with, there is a possibility that you know, TIA would take that up and say, OK, well, does the existing standard support that?

13:40 — Todd Harpel:
If not, we need to come up with a new new standard or a new specification to support it. So what what the likelihood of that is, I can't project IEEE is very different than TIA. TIA you are a representative for your company. IEEE is individual engineers representing themselves. They are technically not there to represent any individual company.

14:04 — Todd Harpel:
Now we know that there are high participation rates from companies that have a lot of skin in the game per se. So a company like Cisco has a lot of say in IEEE. They introduce calls for interest and those kinds of things to create new versions of Ethernet or updates to Ethernet standard. There's a possibility that that could happen. But yeah, so TIA could come back and update 5073 in the future if there are new technical developments. Like I say, this is the first draft that's out for comment right now.

14:35 — Todd Harpel:
The first time we'll have the opportunity to look at all of the comments will be in the June meeting in Madison, WI. And I'm the editor of the document. So I'll be receiving all those comments and then we will go through every comment. And if it's a technical addition, then we need to come to consensus on what it says in that meeting and go through it line by line.

Season 3 Wrap-Up and Guest Perspectives
15:00 — Roy Chamberlain:
Great. Well, I'll tell you Todd, this has been a good one.

15:03 — Roy Chamberlain:
I really have gotten a lot of feedback already and a lot of us who have been educated from you and Mike Good and the other guests on both the Extended Distance Over Copper and the OneReach solution, you know, which is kind of been proven for quite a while now. So thank you very much for your time and we'll see what the next season holds.

15:23 — Todd Harpel:
We should give a shout out to some of our other participants from outside the company, you know, like Jim Davis and Diane Forbes definitely had their own perspective on things that I think added to what we were trying to do here and just educate the industry.

15:39 — Roy Chamberlain:
Yeah, I know it worked.

15:41 — Roy Chamberlain:
Thanks, Todd.

15:42 — Todd Harpel:
All right, thanks.

Closing and Call to Action
15:47 — Roy Chamberlain:
Beyond Bandwidth is a podcast series produced by Leviton Network Solutions.

15:52 — Roy Chamberlain:
For more information on the topics we talked about today, as well as other enterprise or data center network infrastructure content, or to check out all available episodes of Beyond Bandwidth, visit us on the web at leviton.com/beyondbandwidth or wherever you normally listen to podcasts.

16:12 — Roy Chamberlain:
If you enjoyed this episode, we'd appreciate you leaving an honest review in your podcast application. Along with word of mouth, leaving a review will help others find our show.

16:21 — Roy Chamberlain:
I'm Roy Chamberlain and this was Beyond Bandwidth. Until next time.